MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2009-04-24

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2009-04-24T08:06:54  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
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2009-04-24T10:21:52  <ThomasWaldmann> grzywacz: btw, i read some (rather vague) stuff about using xmpp as a base for collab web editing. do you know if there is something we would maybe like to use for moin?
2009-04-24T10:31:07  <grzywacz> ThomasWaldmann, there are JavaScript xmpp libraries.
2009-04-24T10:32:54  <grzywacz> ThomasWaldmann, there's a sample list on the xmpp.org site in the Libraries section
2009-04-24T10:33:13  <grzywacz> ThomasWaldmann, I also recall some discussions from the ML, but forgot the conclusions. ;-)
2009-04-24T10:35:52  <ThomasWaldmann> especially production or near-production level code would be interesting
2009-04-24T10:36:49  <TheSheep> postproduction
2009-04-24T10:39:18  <ThomasWaldmann> iirc i found some discussion by googling for mobwrite wiki
2009-04-24T10:39:48  <ThomasWaldmann> some guy was thinking aloud there that mobwrite shouldn't have its own server, but somehow use xmpp
2009-04-24T10:40:25  <ronny> i hava a certain interest in collaborative editing
2009-04-24T10:40:29  <TheSheep> the wiki server would have to run a jabber bot anyways
2009-04-24T10:40:40  <TheSheep> no cgi possible
2009-04-24T10:41:05  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, cgi is not possible for that stuff due to performance anyway
2009-04-24T10:41:05  <TheSheep> simple ajax would be more powerful
2009-04-24T10:41:10  <ronny> TheSheep: cgi is possible, but needs a jabber service
2009-04-24T10:41:29  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: it would be possible with a small separate cgi file
2009-04-24T10:41:35  <ronny> the cgi could send single messages per connection to the jabber server
2009-04-24T10:42:05  <ronny> also there are things like orbited and others
2009-04-24T10:42:11  <dreimark> moin
2009-04-24T10:42:18  <ThomasWaldmann> my main point is that we have some collab editor soc project now, we should try to avoid reinventing the wheel by doing some more research before coding starts
2009-04-24T10:42:57  <TheSheep> what are the actual advantages of using jabber for this, over, say, dumb bytestream over ajax?
2009-04-24T10:43:41  <ThomasWaldmann> that (maybe) reusing some existing infrastructure (jabberds) is good?
2009-04-24T10:44:04  <TheSheep> but we have a star architecture anyways
2009-04-24T10:44:16  <TheSheep> so the extra infrastructure is just a burden
2009-04-24T10:44:24  <ronny> also if its a bit smart it could work together with the collab editing stuff the colabora guy made for emacs/vim/gedit
2009-04-24T10:44:29  <ThomasWaldmann> i also read some vague stuff about jabber over http, which maybe could also be beneficial
2009-04-24T10:45:48  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, where's alexandre martani, our collab editing student? :)
2009-04-24T10:46:52  <ThomasWaldmann> i think he maybe should start discussing that with some related software developers first, like the mobwrite author and some others
2009-04-24T10:46:58  <dreimark> his nick is amartani
2009-04-24T10:47:16  <dreimark> jabber based whiteboard http://coccinella.im/
2009-04-24T10:47:41  <TheSheep> dreimark: there is also a gsoc project to add whiteboard to gajim this year
2009-04-24T10:48:03  <TheSheep> I wonder if that could be used for editing drawings on moin :)
2009-04-24T10:48:05  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: not web based
2009-04-24T10:48:10  <dreimark> the question is if we want such a beast too. if it is not webbased
2009-04-24T10:48:33  <TheSheep> more jabber clients will grow a whiteboard eventually
2009-04-24T10:48:52  <TheSheep> maybe it will be deasible to make a jabber-based wiki engine at some point
2009-04-24T10:48:56  <TheSheep> feasible
2009-04-24T10:49:51  <TheSheep> you click edit, it asks you for your jid and pops up a whiteboard
2009-04-24T10:50:34  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: if we can build a web based companion for it, maybe. like the wiki server participating in a session just as another peer.
2009-04-24T10:51:34  <ThomasWaldmann> anyway, if amartani joins us again, someone get him started to create a brainstorming wiki page
2009-04-24T10:51:39  * ThomasWaldmann gtg
2009-04-24T10:51:48  <ThomasWaldmann> waldi: ^^
2009-04-24T10:53:31  <dreimark> TheSheep: if the drawinf stuff becomes refactored it should be done in a way that it is rather a plugin feature and one could exchange it.
2009-04-24T10:54:03  <TheSheep> dreimark: I dream of pluggable editors for moin
2009-04-24T10:54:17  <TheSheep> dreimark: so that you can also replace teh default edit form
2009-04-24T10:54:22  <dreimark> :)
2009-04-24T10:55:56  <TheSheep> I just refactored it like that in Hatta: you have WikiPage classes for different mime types, inheriting from each other, each can have its own parser, editor, pre-save hook, diff, etc.
2009-04-24T10:58:00  <dreimark> yeah that's a good idea. we just need some people working on not so common stuff for application,  audio or video
2009-04-24T10:58:24  <TheSheep> next step is to make it pluggable, so that you can add new types easily
2009-04-24T10:58:36  <TheSheep> for example .po files
2009-04-24T10:58:51  <TheSheep> with a nice rosetta-like editor
2009-04-24T11:00:48  <dreimark> :)
2009-04-24T11:03:58  <dreimark> I hope we get selected for ghop. I have ideas for lot's of small tools and some bigger ones
2009-04-24T11:04:42  <dreimark> based on mimetypes to fetch data while uploading, converting, slicing, preview
2009-04-24T11:05:19  <dreimark> it would be also good someone would work on PIL or extract some code from there
2009-04-24T11:06:16  <dreimark> that personal image server which is used by ohloh is also nice
2009-04-24T11:06:24  <TheSheep> ?
2009-04-24T11:06:30  <TheSheep> personal image server?
2009-04-24T11:07:33  <dreimark> I think it is gravatar
2009-04-24T11:08:20  <dreimark> http://en.gravatar.com/
2009-04-24T11:08:21  <TheSheep> aah
2009-04-24T11:08:35  <TheSheep> yeah, the idea is nice
2009-04-24T11:08:46  <TheSheep> to have separate, specialised services
2009-04-24T11:09:03  <TheSheep> so that you don't have to upload your photo to a million places
2009-04-24T11:09:21  <TheSheep> http://webkit.org/specs/CSSVisualEffects/CSSAnimation.html <-- cool
2009-04-24T11:11:05  <dreimark> indeed.
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2009-04-24T11:38:47  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep:  I dream of pluggable editors for moin
2009-04-24T11:39:04  <ThomasWaldmann> (esp. for supporting misc. mimetypes and markups etc.)
2009-04-24T11:40:12  <ThomasWaldmann> and yes, I also had that inheritance idea. just the base for it is not there yet in main branch
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2009-04-24T11:45:29  <ThomasWaldmann> waldi: dennda: btw, we have to think about what repo we use as base for the collab editor project
2009-04-24T11:46:00  <ThomasWaldmann> the storage repo would make sense because it already has ripped out most of the storage code from Page*Editor
2009-04-24T11:46:56  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: your editor classes, do they cleanly separate from storage code?
2009-04-24T11:47:05  <TheSheep> no
2009-04-24T11:47:20  <TheSheep> they all get a reference to the storage object
2009-04-24T11:48:07  <TheSheep> they only read what they need
2009-04-24T11:48:39  <TheSheep> for example, the WikiPageImage doesn't need the content of the page
2009-04-24T11:50:41  <ThomasWaldmann> of course they need access to the storage somehow, the question was rather if you have storage specific code within the page editor classes (like moin 1.9 has)
2009-04-24T11:56:06  <waldi> I would also base it on the storage repo
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2009-04-24T13:04:09  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: should we base all gsoc projects on the storage code?
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2009-04-24T13:10:42  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: well, that's a moving target :)
2009-04-24T13:13:02  <ThomasWaldmann> real time editing: ok, as there is less code in page*editor
2009-04-24T13:13:14  <ThomasWaldmann> storage: sure
2009-04-24T13:14:23  <ThomasWaldmann> installation and admin ui: don't see why, installation shouldn't be that different (we could consider storage later, when coding comes to backend configuration)
2009-04-24T13:15:52  <ThomasWaldmann> group handling: that one place where it accesses the page contents can be easily changed
2009-04-24T13:16:11  <ThomasWaldmann> xapian search: don't see why
2009-04-24T13:16:28  <ThomasWaldmann> rights visualization: don't see why
2009-04-24T13:18:54  <ThomasWaldmann> so devilsadvocate and dimazest maybe rather start with 1.9 code. if progress on 2.0-storage is good and it has stabilized, we maybe can upgrade after midterm?
2009-04-24T13:32:02  <dreimark> ok
2009-04-24T13:32:42  <dreimark> if merge at midterm more mentors will look at the next beta code
2009-04-24T13:32:56  <dreimark> (and students)
2009-04-24T13:54:43  <ThomasWaldmann> gtg/bbl
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2009-04-24T15:35:04  <dreimark> http://planetsmilies.net/
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2009-04-24T15:48:57  <TheSheep> dreimark: scary
2009-04-24T15:50:17  <ronny> hmm
2009-04-24T15:50:26  <ronny> http is gona get a PATCH method :)
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2009-04-24T15:50:47  <TheSheep> ronny: no?
2009-04-24T15:51:24  <TheSheep> dreimark: I vote for changing moin's logo to http://planetsmilies.net/kaos-animal-bunny-smiley-6193.gif
2009-04-24T15:51:35  <ronny> TheSheep: its in the works
2009-04-24T15:51:54  <ronny> basically you can send patches to resources once its done
2009-04-24T15:52:53  <TheSheep> so you can diff-edit the wiki pages?
2009-04-24T15:53:42  <ronny> yeah
2009-04-24T15:54:28  <ronny> now the last thing thats missing is a microformat that tells the line-ranges of paragraphs
2009-04-24T15:56:19  <ronny> hmm, well, actually bytes
2009-04-24T15:56:44  <TheSheep> bylines
2009-04-24T15:57:38  <ronny> sadly line headers are not able to talk in terms of lines/pages/times i think
2009-04-24T15:57:44  <ronny> s/line/range/
2009-04-24T15:58:04  <TheSheep> frames
2009-04-24T16:37:33  <ThomasWaldmann> re
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2009-04-24T20:06:32  <dreimark> gtg bbl
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2009-04-24T21:51:53  * ThomasWaldmann upgraded to mod_wsgi 2.4
2009-04-24T22:02:26  <dreimark> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mwKq7_JlS8
2009-04-24T22:04:36  <ThomasWaldmann> hehe, great guy
2009-04-24T22:04:59  <dreimark> he speaks very fast
2009-04-24T22:05:11  * dreimark has to concentrate
2009-04-24T22:05:48  <dreimark> TheSheep: what javascript console is he using
2009-04-24T22:10:52  <dreimark> very good :)
2009-04-24T22:37:26  <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/EmailShouldNotMIMEEncodeBlanks any comments about this?
2009-04-24T22:51:14  <ThomasWaldmann> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/114099/
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2009-04-24T23:31:30  <dreimark> hi amartani
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