MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2009-04-20

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2009-04-20T00:44:17  <dennda> how do you determine the version of $some_moin_instance on the internet?
2009-04-20T00:44:22  <dennda> is there some system stats page?
2009-04-20T00:44:47  <ThomasWaldmann> SystemInfo
2009-04-20T00:45:50  <dennda> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoin <-- is that page part of underlay?
2009-04-20T00:45:59  <dennda> guess so
2009-04-20T00:46:13  <dennda> just trying to determine a *very* rough estimate as to how many moin instances there are
2009-04-20T00:46:19  <dennda> (out there in the wild)
2009-04-20T00:47:51  <ThomasWaldmann> yes
2009-04-20T00:47:58  <dennda> hmk
2009-04-20T00:48:11  <dennda> are there numbers on how many downloads there are for the releases?
2009-04-20T00:51:06  <ThomasWaldmann> on SF there were some stats, but since moving to moinmo.in, I didn't make stats
2009-04-20T00:51:36  <dennda> hmk
2009-04-20T00:52:11  <dennda> searching for "MoinMoin powered" gives me 150k results. searching for some string from that MoinMoin page gives me 1,5k results
2009-04-20T00:52:47  <dennda> don't have a better idea :-)
2009-04-20T01:01:24  <ThomasWaldmann> for what exactly do you need the numbers?
2009-04-20T01:02:08  <dennda> to satisfy my curiosity :-)
2009-04-20T01:02:16  <dennda> not important, just interesting to know
2009-04-20T01:02:59  <dennda> i think it's quite motivating to know there's X people actually using your work
2009-04-20T01:03:30  <dennda> http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2009/04/oxygen-on-house-md.html
2009-04-20T01:03:51  <dennda> if I had been the designer of those icons and seen them in my favorite tv show i'd be kinda delighted :-)
2009-04-20T01:03:55  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, but one can't determine the number of users anyway
2009-04-20T01:04:06  <dennda> yes, i know
2009-04-20T01:04:19  <dennda> just talking about the very rough dimension
2009-04-20T01:04:32  <dennda> hundreds, thousands, millions :-)
2009-04-20T01:05:05  <ThomasWaldmann> let's say it's popular enough :)
2009-04-20T01:05:15  <dennda> that's for sure
2009-04-20T01:10:53  <dennda> http://www.ohloh.net/p/moinmoin
2009-04-20T01:10:54  <dennda> wtf
2009-04-20T01:11:05  <dennda> """Mostly written in JavaScript"""
2009-04-20T01:14:45  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe the fckeditor files
2009-04-20T01:15:19  <dreimark> it should weight
2009-04-20T01:15:32  <dennda> http://www.ohloh.net/p/moinmoin/analyses/latest
2009-04-20T01:16:01  <dennda> funny
2009-04-20T01:16:35  <dreimark> jo, no py
2009-04-20T01:21:20  <dreimark> looks like underlay.tar becomes smaller this time :)
2009-04-20T01:31:16  <dreimark> gn
2009-04-20T01:39:10  <devilsadvocate> interesting : comment ratio for python in moin is 90%
2009-04-20T01:39:51  <devilsadvocate> and over twice the numbewr of blank lines in the js
2009-04-20T01:40:09  <TheSheep> js is not very readable
2009-04-20T01:40:56  <devilsadvocate> js rarely is :P
2009-04-20T01:41:08  <TheSheep> as long as we have at least one user it's worth doing
2009-04-20T01:41:12  <devilsadvocate> but it does make sense to keep the comments in the js minimal
2009-04-20T01:41:24  <dreimark> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html (just seen on my twitter blog by onyame)
2009-04-20T01:41:33  <TheSheep> devilsadvocate: js has clumsy sysntax, and horrible browser api, but otherwise is a nice language
2009-04-20T01:42:35  <TheSheep> devilsadvocate: similar to python in many ways
2009-04-20T01:43:20  <devilsadvocate> TheSheep, is js better than java?
2009-04-20T01:43:40  <TheSheep> better for what? surely it's better for website scripting
2009-04-20T01:44:14  <devilsadvocate> i've written java stuff
2009-04-20T01:44:26  <devilsadvocate> and its not very fun to write
2009-04-20T01:44:26  <TheSheep> js has nothing to do with java
2009-04-20T01:44:37  <TheSheep> except for the name and some syntac
2009-04-20T01:44:39  <TheSheep> x
2009-04-20T01:44:40  <devilsadvocate> only marginally better than C++, with much higher overhead
2009-04-20T01:44:45  <vpv> do you guys think I should take http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.7/rev/d8049de69c4f into the Fedora security update?
2009-04-20T01:44:56  <vpv> (that's 1.7 tip)
2009-04-20T01:45:32  <TheSheep> vpv: why not?
2009-04-20T01:45:40  <ThomasWaldmann> vpv: i was just waiting for some feedback :)
2009-04-20T01:46:16  <devilsadvocate> ThomasWaldmann, the lock is not released if you save an unchanged page otherwise? :/
2009-04-20T01:46:47  <TheSheep> it times out
2009-04-20T01:47:05  <devilsadvocate> hm
2009-04-20T01:47:24  <vpv> I've been working on collecting the security patches against 1.6.4, the RH Security Team will be at work soon since it's monday so I may have some hope of getting the update pushed in the next few days
2009-04-20T01:58:29  <vpv> well, maybe I'll just take strictly security patches for this as Fedora 11 is released soon anyway
2009-04-20T02:06:09  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4696:4463843cdf54 1.9/MoinMoin/i18n/ (43 files): updated i18n
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2009-04-20T02:36:31  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 380:f58386c66150 extensions/data/plugin/action/CheckTranslation.py: CheckTranslation: offer show/raw/edit links separately
2009-04-20T02:41:25  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4697:00179a01f746 1.9/MoinMoin/i18n/strings.py: i18n.strings: cleanup todo, remove HelpOnAcl page (was just a redirect)
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2009-04-20T10:09:36  <dreimark> moin
2009-04-20T10:14:02  <TheSheep> moin
2009-04-20T12:10:21  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
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2009-04-20T12:54:50  <dreimark> is there a cookie lifetime configured for master19. i wonder a bit not to stay logged in.
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2009-04-20T13:14:58  <PawelPacana> moin
2009-04-20T13:17:23  <TheSheep> PawelPacana: hi there
2009-04-20T13:36:17  <ThomasWaldmann> PawelPacana: the guys at ffii.de are waiting for your hg backend :)
2009-04-20T13:38:18  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: give them a link to Hatta
2009-04-20T13:49:45  <PawelPacana> at the beginning of may i go on 2 weeks leave to keep up with master thesis deadlines, probably this will be good time to dig hg backend too
2009-04-20T13:50:20  <TheSheep> thesis and hcking don't mix :(
2009-04-20T13:52:59  <vpv> I have collected the patches for the old Fedora package here: http://vpv.fedorapeople.org/packages/ now I'd just need to test those a bit...
2009-04-20T14:05:04  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: the do rather complex stuff with moin
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2009-04-20T14:16:45  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: examples please.
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2009-04-20T14:32:49  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: for?
2009-04-20T14:33:49  <dennda> the rather complex stuff
2009-04-20T14:34:54  <ThomasWaldmann> iirc they hacked moin to query their patent db and show the stuff like it was a wiki page
2009-04-20T14:36:30  <dennda> sounds like a task for a specific storage backend for that + generic merging middleware
2009-04-20T14:37:39  <ThomasWaldmann> or that router middleware :)
2009-04-20T14:38:17  <dennda> well yeah that's the middleware i was talking about, but you still need some backend to access the patent db (doubt they want to convert it to some of our storage backends)
2009-04-20T14:39:08  <ThomasWaldmann> sure
2009-04-20T14:44:55  <dreimark> cool, do they like to share their code ?
2009-04-20T14:45:47  <dennda> don't you think it's rather specific code?
2009-04-20T14:45:50  <ThomasWaldmann> i doubt we would want to have it
2009-04-20T14:46:16  * ThomasWaldmann also did a custom Page/PageEditor hack for a customer, it was rather ugly
2009-04-20T14:49:51  <dreimark> they could add it as 3rd party extension
2009-04-20T14:51:59  <dreimark> TheSheep: I am working currently on a cms like theme based on mandarin. http://moinmo.in/ReimarBauer?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=reconcile1.png
2009-04-20T14:53:52  <dreimark> Do you think it is a good idea to hide the login link by the logo. so that a click on the logo for not logged in users gave the login action and for logged in users the usual frontpage link?
2009-04-20T14:54:21  <dreimark> (or anyone else who feels responsible in theme design)
2009-04-20T14:56:07  <ThomasWaldmann> less magic is better
2009-04-20T15:07:41  <devilsadvocate> dreimark: bad idea
2009-04-20T15:08:07  <devilsadvocate> dreimark: in fact, a lot of people have told me that the login link (in the default theme) needs to stand out _more_
2009-04-20T15:12:11  <TheSheep> dreimark: I think it's a bad idea to make results of the same actions depend on state
2009-04-20T15:12:46  <TheSheep> dreimark: I'd rather put the login link in the footer
2009-04-20T15:16:05  <dennda> it's common practise that clicking a websites logo brings you back to the startpage. changing that would mean some serious usability worsening
2009-04-20T15:17:42  <TheSheep> "avoid surprises"
2009-04-20T15:17:46  <TheSheep> the duller the better
2009-04-20T15:22:12  <dreimark> TheSheep: http://xkcd.com/571/
2009-04-20T15:23:11  <dreimark> TheSheep: devilsadvocate dennda yeah convinced
2009-04-20T15:23:22  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: too
2009-04-20T15:26:09  <TheSheep> dreimark: you are 4th person today giving me that link :)
2009-04-20T15:26:19  <TheSheep> 5th if you count my rss feed reader
2009-04-20T15:31:03  <ThomasWaldmann>    hehe
2009-04-20T15:37:24  <dreimark> I got it from the pycologne mailinglist
2009-04-20T15:39:17  <TheSheep> thanks
2009-04-20T15:45:24  * devilsadvocate thinks a lot of the other xcds are better
2009-04-20T15:45:40  * devilsadvocate cant understand why this one is getting so much attention
2009-04-20T15:45:59  <TheSheep> devilsadvocate: hint: check by nick
2009-04-20T15:46:01  <TheSheep> my
2009-04-20T15:46:48  <devilsadvocate> :D
2009-04-20T15:46:59  <devilsadvocate> no, i got the link from many places too
2009-04-20T15:47:40  <devilsadvocate> although i do get why you are getting the link so much now :D
2009-04-20T15:47:50  <ThomasWaldmann> it's adressing a common, real world problem. manufacturors of voting machines should read more xkcd. :)
2009-04-20T16:04:13  <dennda> "your party has -32 votes"
2009-04-20T16:05:55  <TheSheep> http://xkcd.com/463/ <-- especially this one
2009-04-20T16:06:01  <dennda> I didn't realize melange was a python
2009-04-20T16:07:54  <TheSheep> google after all
2009-04-20T16:08:02  <TheSheep> they only do python or java
2009-04-20T16:13:18  <dennda> and quite some javascript on top of that
2009-04-20T16:13:52  <devilsadvocate> melange is a GAE app, and that only recently started supporting Java in addition to Python
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2009-04-20T18:46:11  <dreimark> bbl
2009-04-20T19:30:34  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: i received a request for attachment versioning code :)
2009-04-20T19:30:58  <ThomasWaldmann> I guess they want your code. :)
2009-04-20T19:32:02  <dennda> wuha
2009-04-20T19:32:11  <dennda> tell them that will be rather expensive
2009-04-20T19:32:30  <dennda> i want 5000$ transferred immediately :D
2009-04-20T19:37:51  * ThomasWaldmann is not evil enough for this and just told him to wait until after SOC.
2009-04-20T19:39:15  <ronny> remember their sarcasm
2009-04-20T19:39:22  <ronny> "dont be evil"
2009-04-20T19:39:25  <ronny> go for it!
2009-04-20T19:49:51  <ThomasWaldmann> 70mins left :)
2009-04-20T19:50:25  <dreimark> unfortunately I can't wait I have to leave for 2hs
2009-04-20T19:50:28  <dreimark> bbl
2009-04-20T20:11:57  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4317:5f51246a4df1 1.8/MoinMoin/action/AttachFile.py: AttachFile XSS fixes: move escaping to error_msg / upload_form
2009-04-20T20:11:59  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4318:269a1fbc3ed7 1.8/MoinMoin/action/AttachFile.py: AttachFile move: add more escaping (maybe not XSS exploitable though)
2009-04-20T20:12:01  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4319:d8049de69c4f 1.8/MoinMoin/PageEditor.py: release edit lock if someone saves an unchanged page
2009-04-20T20:12:04  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4320:34f0fe3ff120 1.8/MoinMoin/ (PageEditor.py action/AttachFile.py): merged moin/1.7
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2009-04-20T20:30:42  <vpv> ThomasWaldmann: I forgot to say, I tested those security fixes a bit and backported them to 1.6, they work fine for what I can tell
2009-04-20T20:33:02  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4698:78e501f956b1 1.9/ (3 files in 2 dirs): clarify CHANGES about secrets configuration changes
2009-04-20T20:33:03  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4699:5f51246a4df1 1.9/MoinMoin/action/AttachFile.py: AttachFile XSS fixes: move escaping to error_msg / upload_form
2009-04-20T20:33:05  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4700:269a1fbc3ed7 1.9/MoinMoin/action/AttachFile.py: AttachFile move: add more escaping (maybe not XSS exploitable though)
2009-04-20T20:33:06  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4701:d8049de69c4f 1.9/MoinMoin/PageEditor.py: release edit lock if someone saves an unchanged page
2009-04-20T20:33:08  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4702:34f0fe3ff120 1.9/MoinMoin/ (PageEditor.py action/AttachFile.py): merged moin/1.7
2009-04-20T20:33:09  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4703:621c708ecddb 1.9/ (5 files in 4 dirs): merged moin/1.8
2009-04-20T20:34:35  <ThomasWaldmann> vpv: ok, thanks
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2009-04-20T21:01:33  <ThomasWaldmann> http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/moin < !
2009-04-20T21:02:13  <devilsadvocate> yay
2009-04-20T21:02:22  <devilsadvocate> (although i did sort of know :P)
2009-04-20T21:02:31  <devilsadvocate> ThomasWaldmann, thanks :)
2009-04-20T21:02:42  <devilsadvocate> dreimark, TheSheep xorAxAx too
2009-04-20T21:02:43  <TheSheep> wow, looks exciting
2009-04-20T21:03:03  <ThomasWaldmann> congrats to all accepted students! :)
2009-04-20T21:03:06  <TheSheep> should we paste the url on #moin too?
2009-04-20T21:03:43  <ThomasWaldmann> (and if you were not accepted, keep in mind we only got 4 slots for 12 applications)
2009-04-20T21:04:00  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: yeah
2009-04-20T21:04:19  <dimazest_> great!
2009-04-20T21:08:01  <dennda> who is whom?
2009-04-20T21:08:10  <dennda> nick <-> realname relation fail
2009-04-20T21:08:19  <dennda> """ We are currently experiencing some problems, we'll be back soon. """
2009-04-20T21:08:22  <dennda> down already
2009-04-20T21:08:46  <devilsadvocate> dennda, i'm chintalagiri shashank :P
2009-04-20T21:13:11  <dimazest_> dimazest <> DmitrijsMilajevs
2009-04-20T21:13:18  <dennda> what was your task again? site is down
2009-04-20T21:13:39  <dimazest_> Modular group handling, output of xapian search results and rights visualization plugin
2009-04-20T21:13:44  <devilsadvocate> mine was the installer/admin interface
2009-04-20T21:18:27  <dimazest_> here is the screenshot http://zest.id.lv/dropbox/moinmoin-gsoc2009.png
2009-04-20T21:19:59  * ThomasWaldmann invited luis rodrigues to work with us outside of SOC (twikidraw related stuff).
2009-04-20T21:48:46  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, we have quite some more mentors than projects, but we could just assign 1 official mentor
2009-04-20T21:50:06  <ThomasWaldmann> but that doesn't mean that those who weren't assigned as official mentors can't help, we can give any help to students we like
2009-04-20T21:50:35  <ThomasWaldmann> but that doesn't mean that those who weren't assigned as official mentors can't help, we can give as much help to students as we like
2009-04-20T22:19:47  <dreimark> re
2009-04-20T22:23:04  <dreimark> hi dimazest_
2009-04-20T22:23:15  <dimazest_> hi
2009-04-20T22:24:13  <dreimark> I think you know already that I am your mentor
2009-04-20T22:26:07  <dreimark> any other other mentor is welcome to comentor also. myself will at least at midterm time try every other project too
2009-04-20T22:26:19  <dreimark> try out
2009-04-20T22:27:48  <dreimark> dimazest_: it would be good if your backend code can become early productive
2009-04-20T22:28:15  <dreimark> because then we can it merge with the backend code by dennda
2009-04-20T22:28:53  <dimazest_> i would like to make it productive as early as possible
2009-04-20T22:29:24  <dreimark> :)
2009-04-20T22:31:21  <dreimark> For all students
2009-04-20T22:31:26  <dreimark> Students get to know mentors, read documentation, get up to speed to begin working on their projects.
2009-04-20T22:31:42  <dreimark> for the next 4 weeks ;)
2009-04-20T22:33:11  <PawelPacana> and don't be afraid to ask if sth is unclear
2009-04-20T22:33:23  <PawelPacana> :)
2009-04-20T22:33:58  <dreimark> yeah ask early if something blocks you (thanks pawel)
2009-04-20T22:45:45  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, it is NOT disallowed that you start experimenting with the code now, but we have to look at your work done within the coding phase ONLY for the evaluations
2009-04-20T22:49:09  <ThomasWaldmann> so refining your plans, getting used to the code and tools, discussing with the mentors is the best you can do now
2009-04-20T22:52:30  <ThomasWaldmann> also, talk to other people than your mentor(s), we have a wiki, a mailing list, 2 irc chans :)
2009-04-20T22:58:28  <dennda> dreimark, dimazest_: I don't quite see how our tasks are related by looking at your the title of yours. Care to explain?
2009-04-20T22:59:51  <dreimark> dennda: he will refactor the group backend.
2009-04-20T23:00:03  <dennda> group backend?
2009-04-20T23:00:15  <dreimark> acls are based on groups
2009-04-20T23:00:51  <dreimark> or groups are used to set acls
2009-04-20T23:01:26  <dimazest_> tasks are not tightly related, because they are too small for the summer if are taken separately
2009-04-20T23:02:02  <dimazest_> so i have picked up several projects which are interesting to me
2009-04-20T23:02:26  <dennda> devilsadvocate: hm we can work together at some distant point in the future perhaps
2009-04-20T23:02:28  <dimazest_> dreimark: if i understood your question correctly
2009-04-20T23:02:44  <devilsadvocate> dennda, certainly
2009-04-20T23:02:49  <devilsadvocate> but not in the next 8 days
2009-04-20T23:02:52  <dennda> devilsadvocate: talking of configuring backends and middlewares easily
2009-04-20T23:02:53  * devilsadvocate hates end sems
2009-04-20T23:03:05  * dimazest_ needs to go to sleep :)
2009-04-20T23:03:10  <dennda> distant future != next 8 days
2009-04-20T23:03:13  <devilsadvocate> :)
2009-04-20T23:03:19  <dreimark> gn dimazest_
2009-04-20T23:03:30  <devilsadvocate> dennda, go on?
2009-04-20T23:03:41  <dennda> devilsadvocate: hm?
2009-04-20T23:04:13  <devilsadvocate> oh, i thought you were about to say something about configuring them :P
2009-04-20T23:04:15  <devilsadvocate> sorry
2009-04-20T23:04:56  <dennda> no just had that idea
2009-04-20T23:05:22  <dennda> because atm you need to do data_backend = memory.MemoryBackend() and perhaps wrap other middleware objects around that object
2009-04-20T23:05:23  <dimazest_> dreimark: i misunderstood your question, what is your project?
2009-04-20T23:05:25  <dennda> and that sucks terribly
2009-04-20T23:05:42  <dreimark> dimazest_: my project is to mentor you ;)
2009-04-20T23:05:51  <dennda> .oO(hilight fail?)
2009-04-20T23:06:10  <dennda> too many nicks starting with 'd'
2009-04-20T23:06:28  <dimazest_> that was to dennda
2009-04-20T23:06:39  <dreimark> know now ;)
2009-04-20T23:06:47  <dennda> dimazest_: you understood correctly
2009-04-20T23:06:52  <dennda> my project ishttp://socghop.appspot.com/student_project/show/google/gsoc2009/moin/t124022705170
2009-04-20T23:06:55  <dennda> my project is http://socghop.appspot.com/student_project/show/google/gsoc2009/moin/t124022705170
2009-04-20T23:07:00  <TheSheep> you should be student0001, student0002, etc. ;)
2009-04-20T23:07:02  <dennda> i just didn't see the relation
2009-04-20T23:07:19  <devilsadvocate> TheSheep, spillover from the xkcd countfail? :P
2009-04-20T23:07:21  <dennda> says a sheep
2009-04-20T23:07:42  <dreimark> no the ..
2009-04-20T23:08:12  <TheSheep> the sheep of sheep
2009-04-20T23:08:20  <TheSheep> capra di tutti capri
2009-04-20T23:08:22  <dennda> the cheap sheep
2009-04-20T23:08:43  <PawelPacana> sheep ship
2009-04-20T23:08:44  <dennda> the cheap jeep sheep
2009-04-20T23:08:52  <dennda> the cheap ship jeep sheep
2009-04-20T23:09:01  <dennda> hey how much do you think we can enlarge this?
2009-04-20T23:09:14  <dimazest_> dennda: at least we can implement api which is similar
2009-04-20T23:09:24  <dennda> dimazest_: hm?
2009-04-20T23:09:50  <dennda> ah implement
2009-04-20T23:10:12  <dennda> luckily not create a new one :-)
2009-04-20T23:11:30  <TheSheep> sip cheap snip
2009-04-20T23:11:46  <dimazest_> i really need to sleep now, that was a big day, i was accepted, oracle announced to buy sun xkcb made great comic...
2009-04-20T23:11:57  <dimazest_> good night
2009-04-20T23:12:46  <TheSheep> sleep seep sheep
2009-04-20T23:13:57  * devilsadvocate wonders if sqlite will save the day when oracle sabotages mysql
2009-04-20T23:16:34  <TheSheep> postgres...
2009-04-20T23:17:25  <devilsadvocate> TheSheep, doesnt sun have something to do with postgres too?
2009-04-20T23:17:39  <TheSheep> no idea
2009-04-20T23:18:02  <devilsadvocate> hm
2009-04-20T23:18:53  <dreimark> I think no. but not sure in the past it was at least a bsd license
2009-04-20T23:29:43  <ThomasWaldmann> dimazest_: dennda: your projects do not have that much overlap
2009-04-20T23:30:31  <ThomasWaldmann> it is just that groups can be built from a groupdefinition page, and that acl code can do some "user in group" check
2009-04-20T23:32:11  <devilsadvocate>  got plastered
2009-04-20T23:32:16  <devilsadvocate> oops
2009-04-20T23:32:18  <devilsadvocate> wrong window