MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2008-04-04

2008-04-04T07:57:45  <gizmach> moin
2008-04-04T08:40:01  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-04-04T08:45:04  <starshine> moin
2008-04-04T08:45:13  * starshine is very tired, back from a good meetng
2008-04-04T09:43:50  <dreimark> moin
2008-04-04T10:10:24  <ThomasWaldmann> moin dreimark
2008-04-04T10:11:01  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: this extension for creole markup could be a nice feature
2008-04-04T10:11:07  <zenhase> moin
2008-04-04T10:11:15  <dreimark> for the ones using the text editor
2008-04-04T10:11:57  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: test and add it :)
2008-04-04T10:12:18  * dreimark will do 
2008-04-04T11:28:39  <dreimark> TheSheep: something:: is in creole ?
2008-04-04T12:28:03  <TheSheep> dreimark: no, there is and ugly additiona proposal for  ;foo:bar
2008-04-04T12:28:15  <TheSheep> s/and/an
2008-04-04T12:43:31  <dreimark> <<Verbatim("=")>> the " " are important surrounding the =
2008-04-04T12:50:51  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: no they are not
2008-04-04T12:51:25  <ThomasWaldmann> see the headline regex (at least this is true for wiki markup, check it for creole)
2008-04-04T12:54:14  <CIA-38> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 3464:9478ddaf9924 1.7/MoinMoin/config/multiconfig.py: config.multiconfig: added editor_quickhelp for creole markup
2008-04-04T12:54:34  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: needed it for creole
2008-04-04T12:55:01  <ThomasWaldmann> creole makes a headline if it enounters = foo = within a line?
2008-04-04T12:59:05  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: I do mean
2008-04-04T12:59:07  <dreimark> <<Verbatim(=)>>
2008-04-04T12:59:09  <dreimark> gives
2008-04-04T12:59:17  <dreimark> <<Verbatim: No argument named "">>
2008-04-04T12:59:48  <dreimark> so if one likes to have Verbatim = written he has to use it <<Verbatim("=")>>
2008-04-04T13:00:21  <ThomasWaldmann> and I mean you don't need it at all at that place :)
2008-04-04T13:01:50  <dreimark> you need it if you want it shown similiar to the wiki markup help
2008-04-04T13:03:37  <ThomasWaldmann> I removed it for the wiki quickhelp recently (maybe only in 1.7, due to translations needed)
2008-04-04T13:03:37  <dreimark> you don't want it shown as "Emphasis:: <>''italics''<>; <>'''bold'''<>; <>'''''bold italics''''" ...
2008-04-04T13:04:13  <ThomasWaldmann> I am still talking about headlines, nothing else.
2008-04-04T13:07:11  <dreimark> that line in the original patch Headings:: <<Verbatim(=)>> Title 1 <<Verbatim(=)>>;
2008-04-04T13:07:19  <dreimark> needs to be Headings:: <<Verbatim(=)>> Title 1 <<Verbatim(=)>>;
2008-04-04T13:07:22  <dreimark> mistz
2008-04-04T13:07:41  <dreimark> Headings:: <<Verbatim("=")>> Title 1 <<Verbatim("=")>>;
2008-04-04T13:07:44  <dreimark> in 1.7
2008-04-04T13:08:09  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe read what I say :)
2008-04-04T13:08:30  <dreimark> because Verbatim is now macro_Verbatim
2008-04-04T13:13:02  <dreimark> got it (hehe)
2008-04-04T13:14:25  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: :)
2008-04-04T13:16:44  <dreimark> it is superfluos to use <<Verbatim("=")>> here. but I was a going to look a step further at that point already
2008-04-04T13:17:25  <dreimark> we do render ''italics'' the word italics in  italics format
2008-04-04T13:17:46  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: do we like to render the others too?
2008-04-04T13:18:12  <dreimark> e.g. = Title 1 = ?
2008-04-04T13:19:05  <ThomasWaldmann> we want to show a syntax help, thus you will need Verbatim for italics, bold, etc.
2008-04-04T13:26:38  <dreimark>  bold is written bold and verbatim is shown how you make it
2008-04-04T13:27:17  <dreimark> title is only written in = Title 1 = and the word Title 1 is not <h1>Title 1</h1>
2008-04-04T13:28:05  <ThomasWaldmann> due to spacing reasons, i dont think we want to show a real h1 there
2008-04-04T13:28:16  <ThomasWaldmann> s/spacing/layout/
2008-04-04T13:32:17  <CIA-38> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 3465:badae7a72b0a 1.7/MoinMoin/config/multiconfig.py: config.multiconfig: removed verbatim for creoles quickhelp
2008-04-04T13:51:29  <gizmach> moin
2008-04-04T14:01:57  <gizmach> I updated my last proposal for gsoc for extending moin's gropus to LDAP and other external sources. I wonder do you think I should write something more. The last things I added was based upon my discussion with ThomasWaldmann
2008-04-04T14:02:37  <gizmach> btw I'm asking now cause I will be off from saturday to sunday evening
2008-04-04T14:23:05  <kikka> Moorning!q
2008-04-04T14:27:43  <gizmach> kikka: :)
2008-04-04T14:52:28  <kikka> ThomasWaldmann: You told gizmach that I'm female?!
2008-04-04T14:55:32  <dreimark> we got a new application
2008-04-04T14:56:10  <gizmach> kikka: sorry proppably it's my fault
2008-04-04T14:56:23  <gizmach> kikka: I remember the wrong name
2008-04-04T14:56:32  <kikka> gizmach: Oh, okay :)
2008-04-04T14:56:43  <dennda> dreimark.get_application_count()
2008-04-04T14:56:56  <gizmach> kikka: I have really much blond moments
2008-04-04T14:57:07  <gizmach> dennda: :)
2008-04-04T14:58:52  * gizmach really ashamed
2008-04-04T15:00:10  <kikka> Heyhey, that happens often.
2008-04-04T16:31:21  <dreimark> http://moinmo.in/ReimarBauer?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=Hits.patch
2008-04-04T16:31:49  <dreimark> makes Hits telling the same result as PageHits
2008-04-04T16:32:14  <dreimark> but there is still this vanishing bug for the second test_Hits test
2008-04-04T16:32:51  <dreimark> which does sometimes count 6 'VIEWPAGE' entries in the event_log for the current page while the log has only 5
2008-04-04T16:43:02  <dennda> dreimark: how many applications are there now?
2008-04-04T16:47:47  <dreimark> no change
2008-04-04T16:48:22  <dennda> dreimark: I don't know how many there are. My last information is quite old
2008-04-04T16:49:00  <dreimark> 14:56 < dennda> dreimark.get_application_count()
2008-04-04T16:49:53  <dreimark> 21
2008-04-04T16:49:53  <dennda> dreimark: hm?
2008-04-04T16:49:55  <dennda> ah
2008-04-04T16:49:55  <dennda> ok
2008-04-04T16:50:13  <dreimark> I thought you were knowing the old constant
2008-04-04T16:50:19  <dennda> nope
2008-04-04T16:51:54  <dreimark> if that number on the page increases I have to search myself which entries are new
2008-04-04T19:00:05  <dreimark> bbl
2008-04-04T19:00:09  * dreimark goes home
2008-04-04T21:19:15  <ThomasWaldmann> re
2008-04-04T21:37:41  <xorAxAx> hmm, 21 applications
2008-04-04T21:37:50  * xorAxAx will start commenting and ranking when the deadline has closed btw
2008-04-04T21:39:54  <johill> xorAxAx: I just commented on that xml-retrieval one though, it seems a bit strange
2008-04-04T21:40:11  <johill> xorAxAx: yeah I was planning to do the same, but I see you can already say you would mentor one so I did
2008-04-04T21:43:21  <xorAxAx> yeah, makes sense
2008-04-04T21:43:41  <TheSheep> 20 applications, actually
2008-04-04T21:44:00  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: hehe, lets say 20+1 :)
2008-04-04T21:44:33  <johill> lots of overlap too though
2008-04-04T21:44:49  <TheSheep> note to self: come up with more ideas for next year
2008-04-04T21:44:55  <gizmach> * xorAxAx will start commenting and ranking when the deadline has closed btw
2008-04-04T21:45:09  * gizmach says pardon
2008-04-04T21:45:20  * gizmach not used to use win console
2008-04-04T21:53:44  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: to "self"? our wiki page had more than we can find in the applications
2008-04-04T21:56:38  <zenhase> 20+1?
2008-04-04T21:56:53  <dennda> one inofficially withdrawn
2008-04-04T21:56:53  <zenhase> is it the redrawn one?
2008-04-04T21:57:21  <zenhase> good evening-moin, btw.
2008-04-04T21:59:48  <TheSheep> xorAxAx: but note how only the 'well fleshed out' ideas are getting picked
2008-04-04T22:01:24  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: anything else is barely doable for someone who is not a moin devel before
2008-04-04T22:01:47  <TheSheep> yeah, probably
2008-04-04T22:02:09  <dennda> Yes, it's a bit hard because you already need to know how it works internally
2008-04-04T22:02:22  <dennda> thanks ThomasWaldmann for your comment btw. I was kinda surprised :)
2008-04-04T22:03:55  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: yes but thats their own problem :)
2008-04-04T22:04:51  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: well, i am not sure how you say whether one is "well fleshed out". i think a few people picked ideas where a lot of problems and design decisions are yet unknown
2008-04-04T22:04:58  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: and thats usually the typical case
2008-04-04T22:08:27  <TheSheep> agreed
2008-04-04T22:09:20  <xorAxAx> and its not untypical to have applications concentrate on a few favorite ones
2008-04-04T22:09:49  <xorAxAx> maybe somebody should reflect the current status on the wiki page to let students know how often things were chosen (like in the previous years)
2008-04-04T22:11:18  <TheSheep> "good morning, I'd like to fork the moin wiki engine to make it into a mmorpg like wow, only better"
2008-04-04T22:12:03  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: surprised?
2008-04-04T22:13:09  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: positively
2008-04-04T22:14:03  <dennda> TheSheep: sounds interesting :)
2008-04-04T22:14:51  <TheSheep> ha
2008-04-04T22:15:24  <johill> TheSheep: will it be all flashy and ajaxy?
2008-04-04T22:15:27  <zenhase> xorAxAx: 'design decisions are yet unknown' ,,, thinking of send_page too here?
2008-04-04T22:15:45  <xorAxAx> zenhase: for example :)
2008-04-04T22:15:53  <xorAxAx> but i didnt think about it specifically
2008-04-04T22:15:58  <zenhase> TheSheep: this wasn't a real proposal, wasn't it?
2008-04-04T22:16:34  <dennda> zenhase: do you feel it should be? :)
2008-04-04T22:16:35  <zenhase> xorAxAx: well, in 20 applications there are ought to be several which have a lot of designing to do
2008-04-04T22:16:41  * ThomasWaldmann still waits for the bare "please let me join" :)
2008-04-04T22:16:48  <TheSheep> zenhase: no :) I just imagined what would happen if students didn't prefer the well "fleshed out" ideas
2008-04-04T22:16:49  <zenhase> dennda: actually it feels kinda wrong
2008-04-04T22:17:01  <zenhase> dennda: also i have a bad experience with WoW
2008-04-04T22:17:13  <dreimark> dennda: I was missing the unit tests ;)
2008-04-04T22:17:28  <zenhase> i've seen people going to like 'totally locked in'-state
2008-04-04T22:17:54  <xorAxAx> zenhase: of course, TheSheep claimed the opposite
2008-04-04T22:19:17  <dennda> zenhase: got addicted? :)
2008-04-04T22:19:24  <dennda> dreimark: hm?
2008-04-04T22:19:48  <dreimark> dennda: for the backup example code ;)
2008-04-04T22:20:01  <TheSheep> actually parsing is one of the more interesting parts of wiki enignes -- I mean algorithm-wise
2008-04-04T22:20:20  <TheSheep> searching would be another
2008-04-04T22:20:29  <xorAxAx> or clustering :-)
2008-04-04T22:20:30  <dennda> dreimark: honestly, I didn't write ones
2008-04-04T22:20:30  <zenhase> dennda: yeah, those guys
2008-04-04T22:20:57  <zenhase> dennda: i bought WoW, played the one month freeplay ... then i just thought "what a crappy way to kill time"
2008-04-04T22:21:15  <zenhase> it wasn't any fun imo :o
2008-04-04T22:21:26  <dennda> dreimark: that thing is supposed to make incremental backups of my server at home, nothing too fancy... (although I really do think now I should have written unit tests)
2008-04-04T22:21:38  <dennda> got a bit bigger than I expected
2008-04-04T22:21:41  * johill thinks of his ad-hoc bash shell scripts
2008-04-04T22:21:41  <TheSheep> I used to build a lot of fun things in 2nd Life for some time
2008-04-04T22:21:49  <ThomasWaldmann> killing bugs is more fun!? :)
2008-04-04T22:22:00  <dreimark> indeed
2008-04-04T22:22:02  <xorAxAx> dennda: use rsync-incr :)
2008-04-04T22:22:15  <zenhase> TheSheep: well, i think 2nd life is way more creative
2008-04-04T22:22:22  <dennda> xorAxAx: it's based on that
2008-04-04T22:22:36  <xorAxAx> ah
2008-04-04T22:22:39  <TheSheep> zenhase: but too social for my tastes ;)
2008-04-04T22:22:41  <johill> hmm.
2008-04-04T22:22:46  * johill takes up linux filesystem hacking
2008-04-04T22:22:54  <zenhase> TheSheep: there are advertising agencies specializing in online ad placement ... they design 2nd life campaigns or sth. like that
2008-04-04T22:23:03  <TheSheep> johill: write fuse-moin ;)
2008-04-04T22:23:11  <johill> TheSheep: bah that's userspace, no fun ;)
2008-04-04T22:23:11  <TheSheep> ah, there is one already
2008-04-04T22:23:30  <xorAxAx> johill: doing what?
2008-04-04T22:23:39  <johill> xorAxAx: making debugfs safer
2008-04-04T22:23:43  <zenhase> johill: no fun?
2008-04-04T22:23:50  <xorAxAx> whats debugfs?
2008-04-04T22:23:59  <zenhase> johill: let's talk about that, when we drown in micro kernel operating systems ;)
2008-04-04T22:24:20  <dennda> hurd \o/
2008-04-04T22:24:30  <zenhase> well no
2008-04-04T22:24:31  <dennda> hurd participates in gsoc 2008, too
2008-04-04T22:24:37  <zenhase> i don't believe in hurd
2008-04-04T22:24:43  <xorAxAx> hurd doesnt have a micro kernel :)
2008-04-04T22:24:46  <johill> xorAxAx: http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/4/4/194
2008-04-04T22:24:49  <dennda> doesn't it?
2008-04-04T22:24:51  <zenhase> xorAxAx: they have mach
2008-04-04T22:25:01  <johill> xorAxAx: debugfs is a debug filesystem ;)
2008-04-04T22:25:01  <zenhase> it's like the hugest microkernel in the universe
2008-04-04T22:25:19  <zenhase> mach is soooo 80ies :)
2008-04-04T22:25:21  <johill> xorAxAx: it allows you to show internal stuff in a filesystem basically, so you can check your object state vars and whatever
2008-04-04T22:25:44  <xorAxAx> johill: oh oh, have a look at debugfs(8) and be shot by theo
2008-04-04T22:26:04  <xorAxAx> johill: internal stuff of what?
2008-04-04T22:26:15  <zenhase> sad thing, that l4 kind of died off
2008-04-04T22:26:16  <xorAxAx> johill: you mean proc III, umm, sysfs II?
2008-04-04T22:26:28  <johill> yeah
2008-04-04T22:27:34  * dennda challenges the router
2008-04-04T22:30:02  * zenhase wagers 20 freenode-dollars on the router
2008-04-04T22:30:09  <zenhase> erm
2008-04-04T22:30:40  <zenhase> or 'bets 20 on' or sth. like that
2008-04-04T22:31:35  <zenhase> hmm, my active english skills have become quite rusty :o
2008-04-04T22:32:04  <zenhase> since i am back in this channel i find myself using dict.leo.org several times a day
2008-04-04T22:32:28  <dennda> I prefer dict.cc
2008-04-04T22:32:34  <zenhase> why?
2008-04-04T22:33:03  <zenhase> i mean, i didn't use it ... so what is the difference?
2008-04-04T22:33:15  <kikka> I too.
2008-04-04T22:33:25  <kikka> I like the interface.
2008-04-04T22:33:26  <dennda> s/prefer/use/
2008-04-04T22:33:57  <johill> wagers seems fine to me, if a bit more gambly than betting. but who am I to judge :)
2008-04-04T22:34:25  <dennda> kinda funny
2008-04-04T22:34:26  * xorAxAx wonders in which comment in the kernel you will find that term :)
2008-04-04T22:34:30  <dennda> anybody here NOT speaking german?
2008-04-04T22:34:42  <zenhase> dennda: gizmach for example
2008-04-04T22:34:51  <zenhase> or grzywacz
2008-04-04T22:34:54  <dennda> zenhase: she seems not to be there at present
2008-04-04T22:34:55  <xorAxAx> zenhase: she had 4 years of german courses in school
2008-04-04T22:35:00  <zenhase> xorAxAx: oh ok
2008-04-04T22:35:08  <dennda> I meant just right now
2008-04-04T22:35:10  <johill> xorAxAx: "wagers"? dunno. can grep :)
2008-04-04T22:35:19  <xorAxAx> hehe
2008-04-04T22:36:55  <johill> no hits, so far
2008-04-04T22:39:00  <johill> mind you, I read a lot of books in English
2008-04-04T22:40:04  <dennda> .oO(thou shallst not...)
2008-04-04T22:41:03  <johill> there's also quite a difference between british and american people not just how they pronounce things but also the choice of words
2008-04-04T22:41:21  <xorAxAx> yes
2008-04-04T22:42:25  <johill> no 'wager' in the kernel
2008-04-04T22:42:30  <johill> sorry if that disappoints you :)
2008-04-04T22:42:41  <johill> brb, reboot, hopefully my patch will work
2008-04-04T22:47:54  <johill> it boots
2008-04-04T22:51:01  <zenhase> well, kernel developers are no gamblers ;)
2008-04-04T22:51:24  <TheSheep> zenhase: you wish ;)
2008-04-04T22:51:46  <zenhase> TheSheep: i felt the chill running down my neck, while writing this sentence
2008-04-04T22:51:58  <zenhase> seems my body knew it's inherent irony
2008-04-04T22:52:34  * zenhase opens up a box of chocolate chips
2008-04-04T22:52:34  <johill> it even works
2008-04-04T22:52:42  <zenhase> anyone want some?
2008-04-04T22:52:58  <dennda> johill: you wrote a kernel patch?
2008-04-04T22:53:15  <kikka> zenhase: *wink*
2008-04-04T22:53:47  <zenhase> kikka: got something in your eye?
2008-04-04T22:54:02  <kikka> zenhase, yes, contact lenses, why?
2008-04-04T22:54:32  <zenhase> kikka: well ... the difference between *wink* (english) and *wink* (german)
2008-04-04T22:54:34  <dennda> kikka: because you winked
2008-04-04T22:54:54  <zenhase> kikka: but i understand :)
2008-04-04T22:54:55  <kikka> zenhase: Oh! :)
2008-04-04T22:55:05  * zenhase feeds kikka some chocolate chips
2008-04-04T22:55:16  <kikka> Oh!
2008-04-04T22:55:27  <kikka> *wave*?
2008-04-04T22:55:32  <dennda> yes
2008-04-04T22:56:17  <kikka> chocolate chips...hm.
2008-04-04T22:56:42  <TheSheep> no milk?
2008-04-04T22:56:57  * zenhase is wondering about what other applications there might be
2008-04-04T22:57:14  <zenhase> i mean, it seems only a few of them found their way unto irc
2008-04-04T22:57:56  <zenhase> TheSheep: why milk?
2008-04-04T22:58:04  <zenhase> TheSheep: wait a minute
2008-04-04T22:59:34  <zenhase> oh, wrong spelling
2008-04-04T22:59:35  <zenhase> http://www.worldofsweets.de/out/oxbaseshop/html/0/dyn_images/1/301689_p1.jpg
2008-04-04T22:59:41  <zenhase> it was choclait chips
2008-04-04T23:00:47  <TheSheep> weird
2008-04-04T23:01:33  <zenhase> chocolate-related sweets are never weird! blasphemy!
2008-04-04T23:01:36  <zenhase> ;)
2008-04-04T23:02:26  <TheSheep> except for choculthu
2008-04-04T23:05:00  <TheSheep> fhtagn!
2008-04-04T23:05:55  <zenhase> hahahaha
2008-04-04T23:06:00  <zenhase> you made my day :)
2008-04-04T23:08:22  <gizmach> re
2008-04-04T23:12:33  <CIA-38> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 3466:7bf716a48fc6 1.7/MoinMoin/macro/_tests/test_PageHits.py: test_PageHits: tests multiple call of PageHits
2008-04-04T23:12:41  <CIA-38> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 3467:d62fd466d810 1.7/MoinMoin/macro/PageHits.py: macro.PageHits: fixes multiple call of PageHits (MoinMoinBugs/ClickOnNavibarIncreasesHitsByMultiplicator)
2008-04-04T23:13:03  <CIA-38> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 3468:ab35449c4708 1.7/MoinMoin/config/multiconfig.py: merged main
2008-04-04T23:19:22  <gizmach> zenhase: where you bought those chocolate-chips,I 've never seen that in our shops
2008-04-04T23:19:31  <gizmach> Is that something new
2008-04-04T23:19:37  <johill> I've seen those before, but I don't remember where
2008-04-04T23:19:43  <johill> London maybe?
2008-04-04T23:20:01  <johill> haven't seen them around here
2008-04-04T23:20:17  <gizmach> johill: it will be to loong trip just for sweets
2008-04-04T23:20:26  <johill> yeah :)
2008-04-04T23:30:27  * dennda is going to sleep
2008-04-04T23:30:29  <dennda> good night
2008-04-04T23:30:42  <dreimark> night dennda
2008-04-04T23:32:48  <zenhase> gizmach: no, it's not really new
2008-04-04T23:32:58  <zenhase> gizmach: i think they exist for longer than a decade
2008-04-04T23:33:23  <kikka> yep.
2008-04-04T23:34:11  <gizmach> zenhase: well I'll rtry to find that tomorrow in our stores
2008-04-04T23:52:20  <dreimark> cia.vc is broken
2008-04-04T23:52:35  <dreimark> the hitcounts bug is solved too
2008-04-04T23:52:36  <dreimark> :)
2008-04-04T23:53:33  <xorAxAx> yes, see #cia
2008-04-04T23:54:49  * johill wonders how many channels xorAxAx idles in
2008-04-04T23:55:34  <xorAxAx> not in #cia
2008-04-04T23:55:42  <waldi> too much ...
2008-04-04T23:55:43  <xorAxAx> thats why i advise him to go there
2008-04-04T23:55:57  <johill> oh!
2008-04-04T23:56:09  <johill> I thought you mean "yeah, known problem, being discussed in #cia"
2008-04-04T23:56:18  <xorAxAx> well, this problem has been known for months :)
2008-04-04T23:56:28  <xorAxAx> its "too few people interested in fixing cia"
2008-04-04T23:56:36  <xorAxAx> its written in python ... if anybody likes :)
2008-04-04T23:56:36  <johill> s/in fixing //
2008-04-04T23:56:49  <xorAxAx> syntax error :)
2008-04-04T23:57:17  * gizmach sleeping
2008-04-04T23:57:28  <zenhase> gn8 gizmach
2008-04-04T23:58:27  <zenhase> xorAxAx = strict language parser :)
2008-04-04T23:58:46  * dreimark too
2008-04-04T23:58:57  <xorAxAx> zenhase: yes, i am not a wiki ;-)
2008-04-04T23:59:16  * dreimark goes to sleep too
2008-04-04T23:59:19  <dreimark> good night
2008-04-04T23:59:21  <johill> xorAxAx: http://www.zompist.com/crib.html