MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2008-03-25

2008-03-25T00:00:09  * dennda cheers
2008-03-25T00:00:11  <dennda> :)
2008-03-25T00:01:50  <dennda> If you want to fix it, it's storage/interfaces.py lines 85 ff.
2008-03-25T00:02:34  * dennda doubts he can just push to that branch
2008-03-25T00:02:48  <ThomasWaldmann> not yet :)
2008-03-25T00:04:28  <xorAxAx> dennda: edit it and do like described on our hg explanation page :)
2008-03-25T00:08:11  <CIA-39> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 3729:7e0c9d6d7198 1.7-storage-hwendel/MoinMoin/storage/interfaces.py: storage.interfaces: fix docstrings
2008-03-25T00:08:15  <ThomasWaldmann> no need
2008-03-25T00:09:10  <dennda> I'm just messing around with some new keyboard layouts
2008-03-25T00:09:15  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: well, he could have learned :-)
2008-03-25T00:09:22  <dennda> that's why ThomasWaldmann was faster :)
2008-03-25T00:09:41  <dennda> oh he can just revert it and I push it :)
2008-03-25T00:09:57  <dennda> just kidding
2008-03-25T00:11:20  <dennda> great, now I need to merge these files again because I wrote "Creates a new lock" and thomas wrote "Create a new lock" ;)
2008-03-25T00:12:54  <xorAxAx> dennda: you can also revert :-)
2008-03-25T00:13:17  <dennda> and then "revert" the revert?
2008-03-25T00:13:44  <xorAxAx> hmm?
2008-03-25T00:14:35  <dennda> do you mean reverting my file that's causing the mess or reverting thomas' changes to learn how to push my own correction? :)
2008-03-25T00:15:38  <dennda> did the former
2008-03-25T00:15:55  <xorAxAx> dennda: the latter operation is not called revert but back out :-)
2008-03-25T00:16:19  <xorAxAx> in the context of dvcs to avoid confusion :-)
2008-03-25T00:16:41  <dennda> makes sense
2008-03-25T00:33:17  <zenhase> re
2008-03-25T00:35:20  <zenhase> now, are there already some applications? :)
2008-03-25T00:35:44  <dennda> mine, but it is not yet submitted :)
2008-03-25T00:37:53  * ThomasWaldmann guesses most applications will be submitted within a DOS test in the last hour of the application period :P
2008-03-25T00:37:54  <xorAxAx> no applications
2008-03-25T00:38:26  <zenhase> ThomasWaldmann: :)
2008-03-25T00:38:46  <xorAxAx> hi gizmach
2008-03-25T00:39:07  <xorAxAx> gizmach: the main wiki is http://moinmo.in/ and there we also have the list of ideas
2008-03-25T00:39:14  <xorAxAx> http://moinmo.in/GoogleSoc2008/InitialProjectIdeas
2008-03-25T00:39:43  <xorAxAx> gizmach is a student who asked for python web-related tasks in the #gsoc channel :-)
2008-03-25T00:39:50  <gizmach> xorAxAx: thank you I'm browsing an ides
2008-03-25T00:40:03  * napi is here for same reason, but didn't ask - was reading while writing my dissertation
2008-03-25T00:40:08  <ThomasWaldmann> hi gizmach
2008-03-25T00:40:10  * gizmach adores programming in python
2008-03-25T00:40:29  <napi> Although I'm more looking at the web-based installation aspect
2008-03-25T00:40:52  <xorAxAx> napi: which subaspect of the webinstallation aspect? :-)
2008-03-25T00:41:29  <napi> well, the "doing it" part haa
2008-03-25T00:41:36  <gizmach> xorAxAx: I saw you write a jabber for an inspiration, does that means some xmppp stuf ?
2008-03-25T00:42:24  <dennda> gizmach: yes
2008-03-25T00:42:29  <xorAxAx> napi: the point is that i split the idea a bit. e.g. there is the idea of offering some possiblity to configure moin using the webbrowser
2008-03-25T00:42:43  <dennda> gizmach: you may want to browse last years task. I remember there was something xmpp related, too
2008-03-25T00:42:45  <xorAxAx> gizmach: yes, moin already has xmpp integration
2008-03-25T00:42:56  <xorAxAx> gizmach: it will happily send you messages and talk to you :-)
2008-03-25T00:43:03  <xorAxAx> so now somebody could extend that
2008-03-25T00:43:22  <xorAxAx> you might also ask karol when he comes here, he wrote it for last year's soc
2008-03-25T00:43:46  <gizmach> xorAxAx: I haven't done that yet but I'm very interested in xmpp and I have many free time at sommer to work on it
2008-03-25T00:43:53  <xorAxAx> napi: but then there is also the whole bootstrapping stuff that would allow the user to install moin without a lot of hassles, doing a lot of DWIM stuff etc.
2008-03-25T00:44:01  <xorAxAx> gizmach: sounds cool
2008-03-25T00:44:14  <napi> aye am re-reading the section on the page now
2008-03-25T00:44:45  <napi> not sure which I'd prefer- I have a bit of experience in changing configs through a web interface, but doing the actual installation process through web would be very interesting+challenging
2008-03-25T00:45:12  <xorAxAx> napi: the challenging part here is that every environment might look different :-)
2008-03-25T00:45:18  <napi> heh true
2008-03-25T00:45:20  <gizmach> xorAxAx: for now I'm not very familiar to moinmoin will it be a big problem
2008-03-25T00:45:32  <xorAxAx> what do you think of my php-based-bootstrapper script idea, napi?
2008-03-25T00:45:44  <xorAxAx> gizmach: no, most students didnt use moin before they applied :-)
2008-03-25T00:45:48  <gizmach> xorAxAx: cause the appplications should be written until friday or something like that
2008-03-25T00:45:50  <xorAxAx> only very few of them failed
2008-03-25T00:46:07  <zenhase> xorAxAx: why php when you have to have python on the webserver anyway?
2008-03-25T00:46:24  <xorAxAx> monday, gizmach
2008-03-25T00:46:54  <napi> xorAxAx; very interesting. To be honest the logical one to do would be the installation-as that'll automatically provide the ability to do the configuration anyway
2008-03-25T00:46:59  <napi> and it's very do-able
2008-03-25T00:47:03  <xorAxAx> zenhase: because its often not configured to execute cgi scripts. or if it is, you must avoid a few pitfalls to make it work (correct bangpath, no windows line endings, executable bit sometimes)
2008-03-25T00:47:09  <napi> well, "very" being a bit blurry
2008-03-25T00:47:21  <zenhase> xorAxAx: yeah, i see
2008-03-25T00:47:37  <zenhase> xorAxAx: php works ... most of the time
2008-03-25T00:47:42  <zenhase> +just
2008-03-25T00:48:17  <xorAxAx> napi: yes, the configuration itself has the issue that currently its using a normal .py file. and thats pretty flexible - you wont end up building that as a webform. so maybe a webform where you can edit the .py source is enough? :-)
2008-03-25T00:48:27  <xorAxAx> napi: or some wizard that pregenerates the pythno source
2008-03-25T00:48:29  <xorAxAx> etc. pp.
2008-03-25T00:48:34  <xorAxAx> would need to be thought about :)
2008-03-25T00:49:05  <gizmo> hello
2008-03-25T00:49:08  <gizmo> agin
2008-03-25T00:49:12  <gizmo> xorAxAx: thx
2008-03-25T00:49:14  <dennda> it doesn't matter *when* the application is submitted, as long as it is before march 31st, does it?
2008-03-25T00:49:43  * ThomasWaldmann would avoid the last few hours
2008-03-25T00:49:44  <gizmo> xorAxAx: we were talking about students applications and knowing moinmoin
2008-03-25T00:50:35  <xorAxAx> gizmo: yes, and i replied "monday" :)
2008-03-25T00:51:21  <gizmo> xorAxAx:  I was disconected so I din't recieved it
2008-03-25T00:51:38  <xorAxAx> gizmo: i know ... so that was my last message.
2008-03-25T00:51:56  <xorAxAx> have you currently any questions left? otherwise you can ask here anytime
2008-03-25T00:52:13  <xorAxAx> and its nice that you seem to be from a similar timezone like us, will make communication easier
2008-03-25T00:53:14  <gizmo> xorAxAx: not now, I'm just reading ur ideas and trying to figure what is what, maybe after that :)
2008-03-25T00:53:23  <xorAxAx> good idea
2008-03-25T00:53:25  <gizmo> I'm central european
2008-03-25T00:53:26  <gizmo> :)
2008-03-25T00:53:37  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: I was speaking in terms of "tomorrow" or "the day after tomorrow" :)
2008-03-25T00:53:40  <zenhase> your hostmask suggested that already ;)
2008-03-25T00:54:39  * zenhase wonders about what his code looks like after several months of distance
2008-03-25T00:54:43  <dennda> zenhase: what is .hr? hungary?
2008-03-25T00:54:51  <zenhase> dennda: think so yeah
2008-03-25T00:55:17  <zenhase> i am going to check out my branch from last summer and reevaluate why i failed, i think
2008-03-25T00:55:24  <gizmo> dennda:  .hr is croatia
2008-03-25T00:55:25  <gizmo> :)
2008-03-25T00:55:48  <zenhase> now this is confusing :)
2008-03-25T00:55:54  <dennda> yes
2008-03-25T00:56:14  <gizmo> or in croatian HRvatska
2008-03-25T00:56:16  <gizmo> :D
2008-03-25T00:56:48  <xorAxAx> hmm, .hr is nice because it has beaches while .hu has not
2008-03-25T00:56:55  <zenhase> hmm
2008-03-25T00:57:12  <dennda> many people spend their holidays there
2008-03-25T00:57:25  <xorAxAx> yes
2008-03-25T00:57:40  <xorAxAx> my fellow students in highschool did so because the beer is cheap :-)
2008-03-25T00:57:47  <zenhase> i dunno if it was croatia ... but i heard of a huge 1 month electronic music festival in summer
2008-03-25T00:58:04  <xorAxAx> 1 month? wtf :-) sounds like not much sleep
2008-03-25T00:58:09  <zenhase> damn, i forgot the name and my webbrowser is not working
2008-03-25T00:58:11  <dennda> yeah
2008-03-25T00:58:18  <zenhase> xorAxAx: yeah, its incredible
2008-03-25T00:58:24  <dennda> I had no sleep on two-day-festivals
2008-03-25T00:58:26  <gizmo> zenhase: I dono of any electronic music festival
2008-03-25T00:58:28  <zenhase> xorAxAx: like a small town
2008-03-25T00:58:33  <napi> xorAxAx, would seem like good way to go would be to have an installation wizard that lets the user select basic or advanced installation (basic recommended for beginners/first timers)
2008-03-25T00:58:47  <napi> Basic just asks a few necessary questions (name for the wiki, location of logo etc) and then starts them up
2008-03-25T00:59:07  <xorAxAx> napi: yes, generally thats a good idea. but the question is how to handle cases where the user wants to do more than the basic settings
2008-03-25T00:59:20  <napi> Advanced lets them make significant edits to the .py source, showing default values for all vars, but allows them to change anything to what they want
2008-03-25T00:59:25  <dennda> napi: or you try to avoid that by making the web install itself easy
2008-03-25T00:59:40  <dennda> I was once told that Basic/Advanced modes aren't that good
2008-03-25T00:59:44  <xorAxAx> napi: makes perfect sense IMHO
2008-03-25T00:59:52  <dennda> but don't listen to me :)
2008-03-25T00:59:56  <napi> :p
2008-03-25T01:00:17  <dennda> many projects do it that way
2008-03-25T01:00:32  <xorAxAx> dennda: yes, there is the idea of avoiding configuration to force the people to tune the default behaviour
2008-03-25T01:00:47  <xorAxAx> dennda: but i think that works pretty well for moin already
2008-03-25T01:01:18  <xorAxAx> napi: and in upgrade cases, one would only be able to have a quick installation without prompts or the advanced one (because reengineering the python code is hard)
2008-03-25T01:01:29  <napi> If you keep the web-based configuration available after installation (control access either through login or .htaccess file) then after people have done the 'basic' install they can go into the more advanced section and see what other options are available for editing
2008-03-25T01:01:33  <dennda> xorAxAx: it was just a side note. i don't know how complex moins installation can become
2008-03-25T01:01:56  <gizmo> xorAxAx: design and implement a DOM tree based interface to the output formatter sounds cool, but in what language is wiki parser written?
2008-03-25T01:01:58  <napi> xorAxAx; definately
2008-03-25T01:02:10  <xorAxAx> napi: you mean the generated file would contain a lot of comments and the default settings?
2008-03-25T01:02:19  <xorAxAx> gizmo: its all python :-)
2008-03-25T01:02:37  <dreimark>  gizmo in python
2008-03-25T01:02:38  <xorAxAx> gizmo: but that task is especially hard because the design aspect of it requires experience
2008-03-25T01:02:39  <napi> xorAxAx it could do but doesn't have to. Theres a number of different ways of doing it
2008-03-25T01:02:48  <xorAxAx> napi: yeah
2008-03-25T01:03:03  <zenhase> xorAxAx: you mean like in parser-construction in general?
2008-03-25T01:03:13  <napi> Logical solution would be to accomodate both- have a default config file thats very well commented, and have the web installation read the comments and default values from that source file
2008-03-25T01:03:20  <gizmo> xorAxAx: yes I see it ... but the most interesting one also :)
2008-03-25T01:03:47  <napi> that way when the source gets updated, the work doesn't get duplicated on the installation form - only needs to add/remove/edit existing features to work side-by-side with the new source
2008-03-25T01:04:07  <dreimark> gizmo: http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.7/file/b9c90178b93a/MoinMoin/parser/text_moin_wiki.py
2008-03-25T01:04:10  <xorAxAx> zenhase: that task? no, the interface not necessarily
2008-03-25T01:04:27  * ThomasWaldmann LOL "radioactive cats have 19 half-lives" http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/03/24/0035229.shtml
2008-03-25T01:04:28  <xorAxAx> zenhase: refactoring or rewriting a praser would be a second step
2008-03-25T01:04:39  <ThomasWaldmann> ehrm, 18 :)
2008-03-25T01:04:50  <xorAxAx> zenhase: if you meant gizmo's question
2008-03-25T01:04:54  <xorAxAx> gizmo: yep :)
2008-03-25T01:05:22  <gizmo> dreimark: only 1500 lines of code :) (just kidding)
2008-03-25T01:05:32  <zenhase> xorAxAx: i meant the 'required experience'
2008-03-25T01:05:44  <xorAxAx> dreimark: well, the parser is not the problem here
2008-03-25T01:05:54  <xorAxAx> dreimark: the formatter is the thing to break and reassemble :-)
2008-03-25T01:06:03  * zenhase has a kind of deja vu
2008-03-25T01:06:18  <xorAxAx> zenhase: the formatter is something else than send_page :-)
2008-03-25T01:06:24  <zenhase> xorAxAx: yeah it is
2008-03-25T01:06:30  <gizmo> xorAxAx: OK I'm very confused now :)
2008-03-25T01:06:47  <dennda> gizmo: dreimark has a nice wiki page explaining some of moins internals
2008-03-25T01:06:47  <dreimark> zenhase: that refactoring would be a nice task too ;)
2008-03-25T01:06:50  <zenhase> xorAxAx: but nevertheless it's something i ranted about back then too :)
2008-03-25T01:07:32  <xorAxAx> gizmo: very good :)
2008-03-25T01:07:49  <xorAxAx> gizmo: that means that you have tried to understand moin :-)
2008-03-25T01:08:08  <xorAxAx> zenhase: hehe
2008-03-25T01:08:08  <gizmo> xorAxAx: probbably :)
2008-03-25T01:08:52  <zenhase> xorAxAx: well, as i know by now: i wanted to refactor too much at once
2008-03-25T01:08:53  <gizmo> xorAxAx: but I think it's something I will like after some while
2008-03-25T01:09:02  <dreimark> ok parser is input formatter output
2008-03-25T01:09:13  <zenhase> btw, regarding send_page:
2008-03-25T01:09:22  <zenhase> has it grown since?
2008-03-25T01:09:27  <xorAxAx> gizmo: that sounds nice :)
2008-03-25T01:10:37  <dreimark> zenhase: http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.7/log?rev=send_page
2008-03-25T01:11:37  <zenhase> hmm, has too wait ... gnome-update broke my system. right now my browser doesn't seem to be able to connect to any host o_O
2008-03-25T01:11:44  <zenhase> s/too/to
2008-03-25T01:12:16  <dreimark> zenhase: last comment from johill "send_page sucks. fix bug with invalid highlight REs"
2008-03-25T01:12:31  <ThomasWaldmann> zenhase: since pikipiki :)
2008-03-25T01:12:52  <zenhase> ThomasWaldmann: i was afraid that this would be the answer ;)
2008-03-25T01:13:05  <zenhase> dreimark: oh, poor johill
2008-03-25T01:13:10  <dennda> pikipiki?
2008-03-25T01:13:20  <zenhase> dennda: the former name of moinmoin
2008-03-25T01:13:23  <zenhase> aaaaages ago
2008-03-25T01:13:42  <dennda> i like the new name more
2008-03-25T01:13:43  <ThomasWaldmann> not quite, moin is a piki-fork
2008-03-25T01:13:49  <dennda> ah
2008-03-25T01:13:54  <zenhase> oh erm ok :)
2008-03-25T01:15:15  <zenhase> hmm, i am getting my laptop
2008-03-25T01:15:30  <zenhase> without browser internet kind of ... sucks
2008-03-25T01:15:42  <ThomasWaldmann> http://sourcefrog.net/projects/piki/piki.py <- see there
2008-03-25T01:15:53  <dennda> pikipiki is about 580 lines of code
2008-03-25T01:16:11  <dennda> quite small
2008-03-25T01:19:34  <gizmo> xorAxAx: early classes, got a go, I hope to come here with some direct questions about my desirabe project
2008-03-25T01:19:55  <xorAxAx> gizmo: cool
2008-03-25T01:20:47  <napi> so annoying having a dissertation to hand in in 3 weeks
2008-03-25T01:20:56  <gizmo> bye all
2008-03-25T01:21:02  <dreimark> bye gizmo
2008-03-25T01:21:10  <napi> really want to spend more time looking at moin as a whole before writing application but barely going to have time! :(
2008-03-25T01:21:25  <xorAxAx> napi: which topic? :)
2008-03-25T01:21:40  <napi> my dissertation? Computer Science- Remote Awareness
2008-03-25T01:21:44  <dennda> I have a similiar problem
2008-03-25T01:22:40  <dennda> :)
2008-03-25T01:22:49  <zenhase> remote awareness?
2008-03-25T01:23:08  <zenhase> sounds like a ubicomp topic
2008-03-25T01:23:12  <napi> knowing non-invasive information about collegues in the workplace- specifically aimed at businesses distributed over multiple sites
2008-03-25T01:23:20  <ThomasWaldmann> that's when you are remotely aware of all the bugs :D
2008-03-25T01:23:47  <zenhase> napi: ah ok ... as i assumed then :)
2008-03-25T01:24:14  <napi> is a shit topic-I was really ill when we were allowed to pick our topics so didn't get a chance to go in and speak to any tutors-wasn't allowed an extension and just got given this piece of poo
2008-03-25T01:25:06  <zenhase> that's a pity :/
2008-03-25T01:25:27  <xorAxAx> napi: ah, can you give us some buzzwords what the solution strategies and problem domain are about? :)
2008-03-25T01:25:28  <zenhase> the topic sounds like it could be made interesting tho
2008-03-25T01:25:52  <napi> lol xorAxAx. you and your buzzwords
2008-03-25T01:26:32  <xorAxAx> hehe
2008-03-25T01:26:45  <xorAxAx> zenhase: i dont see any "ubicomp" relations
2008-03-25T01:27:10  <napi> no buzzwords, but heres the problem; you work for a company that has two buildings either side of a main road. Your boss is in the other building on the top floor, and he gets *pissed* if you interrupt him
2008-03-25T01:27:22  <napi> But, you need to speak to him. How do you decide when is a good time to go?
2008-03-25T01:27:26  <zenhase> xorAxAx: pervasive computing, ubiquitous computing, computer supported collaborative working ... it's all a huge interconnected blob
2008-03-25T01:27:31  <xorAxAx> napi: phone his secretary
2008-03-25T01:27:36  <napi> He doesn't have one
2008-03-25T01:27:39  <napi> Not that high up the ladder
2008-03-25T01:28:12  <zenhase> you look at his jabber status message
2008-03-25T01:28:17  <napi> lol
2008-03-25T01:28:17  <zenhase> ;)
2008-03-25T01:28:22  <xorAxAx> napi: continously monitor his floor with CCTV technology and ask the intern to watch the screens?
2008-03-25T01:28:45  <napi> xorAxAx; a little invasive, and requires some one to watch the monitors.
2008-03-25T01:28:53  <napi> also doesn't resolve the issue of having any idea what he's up to inside his office
2008-03-25T01:29:10  <zenhase> or you try to infer as much information as possible from the digital signs he leaves around him
2008-03-25T01:29:13  <xorAxAx> well, thats a policy thing - just forbid curtains
2008-03-25T01:29:20  <xorAxAx> interns are cheap
2008-03-25T01:29:20  <zenhase> status messages in jabber are the obvious ones
2008-03-25T01:29:57  <zenhase> but there can be many more ... is he talking on the cell phone right now in his office? is he talking at all to anyone in his office?
2008-03-25T01:30:03  <napi> indeed
2008-03-25T01:30:09  <zenhase> i think i understand
2008-03-25T01:30:26  <xorAxAx> napi: you could do machine learning on the patterns that your instrumented infrastructure gives you
2008-03-25T01:30:28  <zenhase> tho i already don't like the business-orientation of the problem domain
2008-03-25T01:30:54  <xorAxAx> zenhase: surveillance can be done in a manner that generates money :-)
2008-03-25T01:31:06  <napi> zenhase; you and me both. The "problem" only exists due to a moronic boss and bad company policy. Unfortunately thats a realism rather than an inconvenience for my project
2008-03-25T01:31:45  <napi> xorAxAx; pretty much right (although it's more simlified for that for this ... we get 80% of marks for the write-up so I'll be damned if I'm doing any learning algorithms for it)
2008-03-25T01:31:48  <zenhase> napi: well, i think you could state other problem-domains that sound not so ... moronic.
2008-03-25T01:31:57  <napi> hehe true
2008-03-25T01:32:05  <zenhase> napi: i just read a brilliant book about computer interaction by paul dourish
2008-03-25T01:32:05  <xorAxAx> napi: and 20% for what? :)
2008-03-25T01:32:13  <napi> 20% for code
2008-03-25T01:32:25  <xorAxAx> ah
2008-03-25T01:32:28  <napi> kind of - the break down is more like 70 for writeup, 20 for code, and 10 for presentation
2008-03-25T01:32:41  <napi> but the presentation directly overlaps the code and writeup as you have to present both...
2008-03-25T01:32:43  <xorAxAx> whats the degree you will have after completing this? :)
2008-03-25T01:32:46  <napi> kinda odd mark scheme
2008-03-25T01:32:52  <napi> Computer Science
2008-03-25T01:32:55  <zenhase> napi: he talks about the problems of deploying computer software/hardware in certain domains where people interact in a very specific way with the tasks at hand
2008-03-25T01:32:59  <xorAxAx> i mean, bachelor's?
2008-03-25T01:33:03  <napi> ja
2008-03-25T01:33:10  <xorAxAx> ok
2008-03-25T01:33:25  <napi> assuming I don't flunk this semester :p
2008-03-25T01:33:26  <zenhase> napi: best example he gives is a air traffic control tower
2008-03-25T01:33:45  <napi> zenhase; I think I have a few references to that book
2008-03-25T01:33:55  <zenhase> with the people working there acting upon all those small cards
2008-03-25T01:34:17  <zenhase> and interacting in ways a simple database-app could never facilitate
2008-03-25T01:34:35  <xorAxAx> zenhase: thats primarily an interfacing problem, no?
2008-03-25T01:34:40  <zenhase> napi: it is called 'where the action is ... foundations of embodied interaction;
2008-03-25T01:34:44  <xorAxAx> mouse vs. a real card and your hands
2008-03-25T01:34:45  <zenhase> xorAxAx: no
2008-03-25T01:34:51  <napi> solution I've gone for is monitoring audio+computer input (without logging anything so it's non-invasive) to give an estimate of an "availability" factor for everyone using the software
2008-03-25T01:35:03  <xorAxAx> zenhase: the data structure itself is easy. what is it then?
2008-03-25T01:35:06  <napi> and it suggests when a person is more "free" to interrupt
2008-03-25T01:35:07  <zenhase> xorAxAx: it's primarly a social problem
2008-03-25T01:35:19  <xorAxAx> zenhase: hmm?
2008-03-25T01:35:20  <napi> zenhase; some one is doing a dissertation on that exact thing actually
2008-03-25T01:35:21  <zenhase> xorAxAx: that programmers do not understand the problem domain
2008-03-25T01:35:36  <xorAxAx> zenhase: oh, but that would sound like "not yet"
2008-03-25T01:35:40  <napi> of how the air-traffic controller tower infrastructure could be improved without destroying it
2008-03-25T01:35:42  <zenhase> xorAxAx: they tend to project the real world objects into software objects
2008-03-25T01:35:52  <napi> they said it seemed so easy to start with, but turns out it's insanely complicated
2008-03-25T01:35:56  <zenhase> problem is, that software objects do not behave like the real world objects
2008-03-25T01:36:23  <xorAxAx> yes
2008-03-25T01:37:07  <xorAxAx> zenhase: but still, imagine you would have a machine interface that would emulate virtualised cards
2008-03-25T01:37:16  <xorAxAx> that you could write upon and that you could arrange
2008-03-25T01:37:27  <zenhase> xorAxAx: there it is
2008-03-25T01:37:33  <xorAxAx> you would have moved it into the computer domain, but using the same object presentation
2008-03-25T01:37:45  <zenhase> one aspect that gets a bit lost was this arranging stuff
2008-03-25T01:38:04  <xorAxAx> and then the question is how to merge both approaches ... :)
2008-03-25T01:38:04  * ThomasWaldmann one week left until 1.7.0 feature freeze / i18n freeze
2008-03-25T01:38:15  <dennda> oh
2008-03-25T01:38:47  <xorAxAx> zenhase: also i see a bit the problem of innovation here ... not every human interaction problem gets best innovation rates because of the economic context
2008-03-25T01:38:52  * dreimark thinks we are in time 
2008-03-25T01:39:01  <zenhase> xorAxAx: well
2008-03-25T01:39:07  <dennda> I assume the translation to german is near to complete. Am I right?
2008-03-25T01:39:55  <zenhase> xorAxAx: according to dourish the main problem with computers is, that they way we interact with them did not evolve in the last decades ... at least not in a very perceivable way
2008-03-25T01:40:00  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: for what exactly?
2008-03-25T01:40:14  <xorAxAx> zenhase: yes
2008-03-25T01:40:21  <zenhase> xorAxAx: on the other hand just look how interaction with mobile devices evolved
2008-03-25T01:40:29  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: generally. just assumed it because most devs do natively speak german
2008-03-25T01:40:42  <xorAxAx> well, have you ever used a newton, zenhase?
2008-03-25T01:40:58  <zenhase> xorAxAx: no, but i know that it is awesome
2008-03-25T01:41:14  <zenhase> and we lack more of those kind of devices
2008-03-25T01:41:14  <xorAxAx> hehe, me neither. it was one of the first things jobs shut down btw.
2008-03-25T01:41:20  <zenhase> well
2008-03-25T01:41:27  <zenhase> apple has it's new newton now ;)
2008-03-25T01:41:31  <xorAxAx> not really
2008-03-25T01:41:32  <zenhase> it's called the iphone :P
2008-03-25T01:41:51  <xorAxAx> for economic reasons of course - people werent mature enough for something so innovative :)
2008-03-25T01:42:02  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: there are different parts: i18ned strings, system / help pages. also there is 1.6 and 1.7.
2008-03-25T01:42:46  <zenhase> xorAxAx: well, nevertheless i can really recommend this book
2008-03-25T01:42:49  <ThomasWaldmann> for 1.6, i18ned strings and system pages are rather complete. maybe some help pages need updates.
2008-03-25T01:42:58  <xorAxAx> zenhase: yeah
2008-03-25T01:43:03  <zenhase> i still want to write a summary
2008-03-25T01:43:14  <ThomasWaldmann> for 1.7, work on that will begin in about a week
2008-03-25T01:43:17  <xorAxAx> anyway, good night :)
2008-03-25T01:43:20  <zenhase> and elaborate on what happened from the writing of the book till now
2008-03-25T01:43:28  <zenhase> it's from 2001
2008-03-25T01:43:45  <zenhase> gn8 xorAxAx
2008-03-25T01:43:46  <dennda> good night, xorAxAx
2008-03-25T01:44:15  <zenhase> dennda: btw, where are you from?
2008-03-25T01:44:23  <dreimark> good night xorAxAx
2008-03-25T01:44:38  <dennda> zenhase: koblenz, germany
2008-03-25T01:44:45  <xorAxAx> "Another recurring topic: the engineer assigned to work on Summer of Code is currently out on two months of medical leave. "
2008-03-25T01:44:49  <xorAxAx> wow, fun
2008-03-25T01:45:17  * xorAxAx &
2008-03-25T01:45:20  <zenhase> dennda: ah, that's not that far from here
2008-03-25T01:45:39  <zenhase> dennda: i am from karlsruhe
2008-03-25T01:48:45  <dennda> boy, I'm bad at geography
2008-03-25T01:48:50  <dreimark> i am a bit closer from juelich
2008-03-25T01:49:04  <dreimark> http://maps.google.de/
2008-03-25T01:53:12  <dennda> 207 km
2008-03-25T02:13:16  <dreimark> good night
2008-03-25T02:14:01  <ThomasWaldmann> gn dennda
2008-03-25T02:14:06  <ThomasWaldmann> gn dreimark :)
2008-03-25T02:16:19  <dennda> good night mates :)
2008-03-25T02:16:54  <napi> gn
2008-03-25T02:18:58  <napi> no way of tackling this in my head without just being upfront and asking- would you guys mind if I applied for a project with a different organisation as well as Moin? Theres 3 I'm very interested in, and not confident about (for lack of a better phrase) putting all my eggs in one basket!
2008-03-25T02:20:27  <ThomasWaldmann> napi: you are free to apply to as many projects you wish (as long as you conform to google's rules)
2008-03-25T02:21:23  <napi> Heh I know we're allowed - but it's a matter of curtosy - applying to different projects (specifically, to different organisations) can be read as the applicant not being focused/committed
2008-03-25T02:22:09  <ThomasWaldmann> as long as you don't file 100 trash applications, we won't mind :D
2008-03-25T02:22:34  <napi> hah
2008-03-25T02:22:42  <napi> no, 'only' 3
2008-03-25T02:23:03  <ThomasWaldmann> that's a good amount, imho
2008-03-25T02:23:31  <napi> Moin as it's web related which is my background, OpenMRS as it's health related (my 2nd passion after computers) and Wine for personal interest-one of the key programs for helping windows users transfer to linux
2008-03-25T02:25:41  <napi> Coolbeans. Anyway- back to the dissertation. Need to finish rest of this writeup before I sleep.
2008-03-25T02:25:46  <napi> Application day tomorrow woo \o/
2008-03-25T02:26:11  <ThomasWaldmann> wish you the best :)
2008-03-25T02:26:18  <napi> thanks :)
2008-03-25T02:29:44  <kikka> good night.
2008-03-25T08:31:55  <godog> 'morning
2008-03-25T08:32:13  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-03-25T08:48:10  <godog> I'm looking for some GSoC ideas, following http://moinmo.in/GoogleSoc2008/InitialProjectIdeas I guess the current code to look at would be http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.7/ right?
2008-03-25T08:52:28  <ThomasWaldmann> godog: yes!
2008-03-25T08:53:04  <godog> ThomasWaldmann: thanks, I'll see if I can come up with a nice proposal
2008-03-25T08:53:07  <ThomasWaldmann> except for some special topics (like the storage work)
2008-03-25T08:53:46  <ThomasWaldmann> godog: feel free to discuss here :)
2008-03-25T08:59:41  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, mercurial 1.0 was released yesterday
2008-03-25T09:04:30  <godog> \o/
2008-03-25T10:01:23  <dreimark> moin
2008-03-25T10:01:26  <dreimark> :)
2008-03-25T10:35:11  <kikka> Moin.
2008-03-25T10:56:19  <godog> what is the status of the storage refactoring? i.e. there would be enough work for a SoC ?
2008-03-25T10:57:19  <godog> perhaps ThomasWaldmann ?
2008-03-25T10:57:34  <ThomasWaldmann> godog: see the ideas page and our 1.7-storage repo
2008-03-25T10:57:47  <dreimark> http://moinmo.in/GoogleSoc2008/InitialProjectIdeas
2008-03-25T10:58:27  <godog> hah doc/CHANGES.storage, found
2008-03-25T11:01:03  <dreimark> bbl
2008-03-25T11:10:43  <dreimark> We should add a real comment on the RC page ;)
2008-03-25T12:12:41  <dennda> Good morning
2008-03-25T12:17:31  <dennda> What happens if two students apply for the same task, assuming they are both ranked high enough to get a slot
2008-03-25T12:18:06  <xorAxAx> dennda: if there are 2 students with the same ranking, its undefined who will be chosen
2008-03-25T12:18:12  <xorAxAx> thats why will try to avoid that :)
2008-03-25T12:19:08  <dennda> no, not the same ranking but the same task. I assume the higher ranked student gets the task both want, but what happens to the other student? Is he free to pick another task?
2008-03-25T12:20:34  <dennda> just asking because godog seems to be interested in the storage thing as well :)
2008-03-25T12:21:14  <xorAxAx> dennda: well, in that case we might want to notify one student i guess
2008-03-25T12:21:23  <dennda> ok
2008-03-25T12:21:29  <dennda> we'll see
2008-03-25T12:21:34  <dennda> something more code related:
2008-03-25T12:22:55  <dennda> the storage refactor thing states that more tests are needed
2008-03-25T12:24:18  <dennda> Do you usually write tests before or after writing the actual code? (I know people doing both) Or is that up to me?
2008-03-25T12:24:48  <xorAxAx> dennda: writing tests before writing code is the general plan, not many people do so, though
2008-03-25T12:25:05  <dennda> ok, that's how I learned it
2008-03-25T12:39:00  <godog> dennda: I'm interested in the storage but I'll happily pick another task if you are interested
2008-03-25T12:39:45  <dennda> oh that's not what I wanted to say, godog
2008-03-25T12:39:59  <dennda> I have no exclusive lock on that task :)
2008-03-25T12:40:31  <godog> dennda: true, I'm mostly looking around for now though
2008-03-25T12:43:36  <dreimark> godog: if you like you can add more than one proposal too
2008-03-25T12:44:15  <godog> dreimark: true as well, thanks :)
2008-03-25T12:44:22  <xorAxAx> even to the same org, yep
2008-03-25T12:44:29  <napi> Morning all
2008-03-25T12:44:54  <dreimark> dennda: yeah doing tests first is the prefered way.
2008-03-25T12:45:00  <dreimark> hi napi
2008-03-25T12:49:11  <dennda> good
2008-03-25T13:51:49  <dennda> johill: peng
2008-03-25T14:02:56  <dennda> hmmm.. documentation of a function in the interface doesn't match the way it is implemented
2008-03-25T14:35:35  * dreimark fun with openssl
2008-03-25T15:27:58  <zenhase> moin
2008-03-25T15:28:51  <kikka> Huhu zenhase
2008-03-25T15:50:38  <dreimark> mkdir /tmp/xxx
2008-03-25T15:50:38  <dreimark> mount zamsoft.zam.kfa-juelich.de:/dist/tools /tmp/xxx
2008-03-25T15:50:38  <dreimark> cd /tmp/xxx
2008-03-25T15:50:44  <dreimark> oops
2008-03-25T16:11:37  <Jun> hello, I want to apply the "RSS feed improvements and Atom implementation" project of SoC, Is there any requirement?
2008-03-25T16:13:47  <TheSheep> Jun: the general requirements of SoC apply
2008-03-25T16:14:02  <ThomasWaldmann> and the general requirements of moin :P
2008-03-25T16:14:49  <TheSheep> Jun: there are lots of ways in which the feed(s) could be improved, you can use your own invention
2008-03-25T16:15:02  <ThomasWaldmann> Jun: of course your project application should contain quite some more detail about the project you want to do (that page are just ideas, not complete applications).
2008-03-25T16:16:04  <ThomasWaldmann> Jun: on http://moinmo.in/RecentChanges you see how our current feed looks like
2008-03-25T16:17:38  <ThomasWaldmann> Jun: maybe also have a look at MoinMoin/action/rss_rc.py
2008-03-25T16:22:50  <ThomasWaldmann> Jun: btw, we have an application template, use it :)
2008-03-25T16:28:19  <Jun> thank you all
2008-03-25T16:29:57  <Jun> ThomasWaldmann: where can I find the application template
2008-03-25T16:30:15  <johill> dennda: pong?
2008-03-25T16:30:25  <dennda> hi johill
2008-03-25T16:31:01  <dennda> johill: does this idea on how to refactor a part of the storage backend still apply? http://moinmo.in/JohannesBerg/StorageRefactoringIdeas
2008-03-25T16:31:18  <ThomasWaldmann> Jun: isn't it linked from google gsoc page?
2008-03-25T16:31:23  <johill> dennda: I don't think so
2008-03-25T16:31:52  <johill> dennda: no, that was how I would have done it, but it was done another way to allow "dumber" backend code
2008-03-25T16:32:03  <dennda> ok
2008-03-25T16:32:22  <dennda> just found it when I was looking for an up to date class diagram of the storage part
2008-03-25T16:32:31  <dennda> havn't found one yet
2008-03-25T16:32:49  <johill> I would guess that there isn't one
2008-03-25T16:32:53  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: better look at the code
2008-03-25T16:33:10  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: I do
2008-03-25T16:34:58  <ThomasWaldmann> Jun: http://moinmo.in/DeveloperApplicationTemplate
2008-03-25T16:37:47  <Jun> ThomasWaldmann: Thank you, I have another question, The Moin doesn'st support Atom now?
2008-03-25T16:37:56  <ThomasWaldmann> no
2008-03-25T16:38:15  <ThomasWaldmann> just rss, but even that is not much maintained/developed
2008-03-25T16:39:03  <Jun> Do you think it is important to realize rss and atom
2008-03-25T16:39:17  <ThomasWaldmann> I use neither :P
2008-03-25T16:39:42  <ThomasWaldmann> so that question should be answer by someone using either or both :)
2008-03-25T16:41:41  <Jun> If it is not so important, Maybe I should find anthor topic
2008-03-25T16:45:26  <ThomasWaldmann> well, I guess it is important for people who use it.
2008-03-25T16:45:59  <ThomasWaldmann> It is just that I am personally rather hanging around on MoinMoin:RecentChanges using my Browser :)
2008-03-25T16:48:06  <Jun> I'd like to use google reader
2008-03-25T16:54:32  <dennda> if you have several wikis to watch you may be more comfortable with *one* rss reader instead of several browser pages
2008-03-25T16:58:38  <hongjun> yeah,
2008-03-25T16:59:28  <hongjun> I will go to bed now, see you tomorrow
2008-03-25T17:01:06  <dennda> bye
2008-03-25T17:31:44  <dreimark> bbl some hours
2008-03-25T18:05:25  <johill> xorAxAx, lanius: rwlocks could be implemented quite cheaply at least on a filesystem backend, so we could have a global rw-lock taken as 'write' for removals
2008-03-25T18:06:33  <johill> we probably don't want to take them for read all the time though. RCU isn't really implementable since it would be hard to know when a grace period has elapsed
2008-03-25T18:08:01  <ThomasWaldmann> always keep in mid that it should work on posix, win32, nfs, ...
2008-03-25T18:08:11  <ThomasWaldmann> +n
2008-03-25T18:08:30  <johill> an rwlock doesn't really need anything special
2008-03-25T18:08:37  <johill> you make a dir and each reader touches a file in it
2008-03-25T18:08:51  <johill> a writer will touch a special 'write' file in it, and readers check for that file before hand
2008-03-25T18:09:07  <johill> the writer then waits for the dir to be empty except for the 'write' file and has obtained the write lock
2008-03-25T18:09:35  <johill> the read lock case needs just a stat, touch and unlink
2008-03-25T18:11:20  <xorAxAx> that wont work
2008-03-25T18:11:28  <xorAxAx> because the stat/touch is not atomic
2008-03-25T18:11:35  <johill> it need not be
2008-03-25T18:11:47  <xorAxAx> well, you can endup with a writer and a reader
2008-03-25T18:11:51  <xorAxAx> --> bug
2008-03-25T18:12:26  <johill> ah, I suppose you can, but not the way you describe ;)
2008-03-25T18:12:42  <johill> well sort of
2008-03-25T18:12:48  <johill> the actual problem would be in the writer
2008-03-25T18:12:51  <johill> so yeah
2008-03-25T18:14:12  <johill> I think you can fix that by doing f = open('write'), rename(f, 'reader-1')
2008-03-25T18:14:41  <johill> anyway, you likely don't want the overheaad
2008-03-25T18:15:10  <johill> have to go for now, later
2008-03-25T20:49:30  <ThomasWaldmann> jennifer strange haha
2008-03-25T20:50:08  <ThomasWaldmann> oops, wrong channel. see there for context: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_deaths
2008-03-25T21:23:03  <godog> Nearly all deaths related to water intoxication in normal individuals have resulted either from water drinking contests
2008-03-25T21:25:23  <xorAxAx> or?:)
2008-03-25T21:32:10  <godog> intensive sports
2008-03-25T21:32:37  <xorAxAx> like?
2008-03-25T21:33:39  <godog> xorAxAx: dunno, check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
2008-03-25T23:05:29  <gizmach> hi all
2008-03-25T23:06:01  <kikka> Hi gizmach
2008-03-25T23:07:14  <dreimark> moin gizmach
2008-03-25T23:10:48  <xorAxAx> hi melita
2008-03-25T23:17:50  <gizmach> I took a look at some moin ideas  for gsoc, and I made a list of some that sounded interested to me, but this is my first touch to moin so I'm not quiet sure what to expect. The difficulty of some project is not a problem, a bigger problem is how to write a proposal witouth knowing much about moin. So the list of project I would like to contribute are: Extend the MoinMoin Storrage... - this one seemd to be the easiest but maybe I'm wrong, then Imporve Xap
2008-03-25T23:18:05  <gizmach> kikka, dreimark ,xorAxAx  :) hi
2008-03-25T23:18:17  <xorAxAx> gizmach: your message was truncated, after "Xap"
2008-03-25T23:18:29  <xorAxAx> i suggest installing splitlong.pl
2008-03-25T23:18:46  <gizmach> xorAxAx: thx I'll do that :)
2008-03-25T23:18:48  <xorAxAx> if scriptassist is installed, that can be done via /scriptassist install splitlong
2008-03-25T23:18:56  <gizmach> well I had an inspiration :)
2008-03-25T23:19:28  <gizmach> Xapian based search - this one sounds ok, than my favourite DOM project :) and Extending moin groups to LDAP - I'm interested in this cause one of my hobbys
2008-03-25T23:19:31  <gizmach>                  is security stuf and I think that is very useful. OK that was
2008-03-25T23:19:33  <gizmach> ok
2008-03-25T23:19:35  <gizmach>                  a BWT
2008-03-25T23:19:38  <gizmach> that was really bad
2008-03-25T23:20:03  * gizmach is punnishing herself for that
2008-03-25T23:20:45  <xorAxAx> hehe, you are the third interested student that joined us here that is interested in the storage stuff :-)
2008-03-25T23:21:01  <xorAxAx> but i havent heard about anybody preferring the dom or xapian stuff, yet
2008-03-25T23:21:05  <gizmach> well the storrage stuff is not the first on the list
2008-03-25T23:21:07  <gizmach> :)
2008-03-25T23:21:18  <gizmach> it just sounded easier
2008-03-25T23:21:19  <gizmach> :)
2008-03-25T23:21:46  <gizmach> well dom and xapian are my favourite aldough I said I don't know what to expect
2008-03-25T23:22:59  <TheSheep> I guess the hardest part would be to learn the moinmoin internals in short time
2008-03-25T23:23:18  <gizmach> xorAxAx: honestly, how are my chances to get some of those projects
2008-03-25T23:23:30  <gizmach> TheSheep: yes that's the hardest part
2008-03-25T23:23:49  <TheSheep> gizmach: you have any experience with xapian?
2008-03-25T23:25:07  <xorAxAx> gizmach: very good, i cant see any application in the google webapp yet :-)
2008-03-25T23:25:25  <xorAxAx> gizmach: last year we had only very few students that we needed to drop even though their applications made sense
2008-03-25T23:25:53  <gizmach> TheSheep:  I know only about xappy python module
2008-03-25T23:25:57  <xorAxAx> i.e. differently said, we didnt have a lot of good applications compared to the number of slots (i think the total amount of applications was about 15 and we had 5 slots)
2008-03-25T23:25:58  <gizmach> and I know what that is
2008-03-25T23:26:29  <gizmach> xorAxAx: well it will be hard to write a good application in such a short time
2008-03-25T23:27:14  <TheSheep> gizmach: have you ever used moinmoin wiki (as an user, not necessarily admin)?
2008-03-25T23:27:58  <xorAxAx> gizmach: well, good here means the person can program, has a sane idea etc.
2008-03-25T23:28:00  <xorAxAx> basic things
2008-03-25T23:28:59  <gizmach> TheSheep: these days were the first time for me to get familiar with it, before that I didn't even know wht that is. I done some code browsing cause I found that way easier to understand how it works
2008-03-25T23:29:20  <dreimark> gizmach: you should can't present now  the solution in one day while we ecpect it takes 2 months to hack it
2008-03-25T23:29:31  <dreimark> but you should describe a way how it could be solved
2008-03-25T23:29:52  <dreimark> so that we can get if you can do/are able to do the job
2008-03-25T23:30:22  <gizmach> dreimark: That's cool
2008-03-25T23:30:32  <TheSheep> gizmach: then you have a fresh look at it
2008-03-25T23:30:48  <xorAxAx> gizmach: see, there was a student who never browsed code and he had a refactoring task. he also liked "hungarian notation" :-)
2008-03-25T23:31:09  <gizmach> TheSheep: yes :
2008-03-25T23:31:22  <xorAxAx> gizmach: so browsing code is a good plus already :-)
2008-03-25T23:31:59  <dreimark> gizmach: I did a description about some parts of MM (unfortunately in german)
2008-03-25T23:32:04  <dreimark> http://moinmo.in/ReimarBauer/UnderConstruction
2008-03-25T23:32:10  <gizmach> xorAxAx: that was the only way how toget known wit it in a short time, also the code is very nice written so it wasn't very large problem to understand the basics
2008-03-25T23:32:21  <dreimark> but the examples should be understandable
2008-03-25T23:33:02  <xorAxAx> gizmach: hehe
2008-03-25T23:33:39  <gizmach> dreimark: I learned germany in school but I think I will understan only ur examples, thx
2008-03-25T23:34:18  <xorAxAx> hehe
2008-03-25T23:34:18  <gizmach> dreimark: you should translate it
2008-03-25T23:34:30  <xorAxAx> lets see ...
2008-03-25T23:34:46  <xorAxAx> Für wieviel Jahre hattest du Deutsch in der Schule?
2008-03-25T23:34:49  <dreimark> yeah or one of the next ghop students
2008-03-25T23:34:54  <xorAxAx> ... if you can understand the question
2008-03-25T23:35:28  <gizmach> xorAxAx: vier Jahre
2008-03-25T23:35:31  <gizmach> :)
2008-03-25T23:35:45  <gizmach> viere Jahre
2008-03-25T23:35:46  <gizmach> ?
2008-03-25T23:35:55  <gizmach> I'm not quiet sure
2008-03-25T23:36:32  <TheSheep> gizmach: sorry, but I'm just curious: have you used other wikis before? or is the whole concept of how wiki works (technically) new?
2008-03-25T23:36:47  <gizmach> whats the right answer but I had trouvbles while learning it, I foung german as one of the hardet languages to learn ,
2008-03-25T23:36:52  <gizmach> TheSheep:  I used some wikis
2008-03-25T23:37:47  <xorAxAx> gizmach: vier Jahre is fine :-)
2008-03-25T23:37:52  <xorAxAx> hmm, thats like me learning french
2008-03-25T23:38:04  <gizmach> http://www.linux.hr/modules/phpwiki/index.php/PrijevodKnjige  that was one of the times I used wiki
2008-03-25T23:38:05  <xorAxAx> and the only thing that i still remember is "Je ne parle pas francais" :-)
2008-03-25T23:38:19  <gizmach> we tried to translate a book about linux in croatian
2008-03-25T23:38:25  <gizmach> xorAxAx: :D :D
2008-03-25T23:38:45  <gizmach> xorAxAx: yea I speak german something like that
2008-03-25T23:39:01  <gizmach> xorAxAx: but I plan to learn it next year when I graduate
2008-03-25T23:39:27  <xorAxAx> cool, its easier than hungarian :-)
2008-03-25T23:39:35  <xorAxAx> the language of your neighbour
2008-03-25T23:39:47  <gizmach> well I'm from croatia
2008-03-25T23:39:48  <gizmach> :D
2008-03-25T23:39:57  <xorAxAx> yes, thats why i said neighbour :-)
2008-03-25T23:39:57  <gizmach> yea the hungarian is difficult
2008-03-25T23:39:58  <TheSheep> xorAxAx: there is also very importanbt 'Voule vous coucher avec moi?' ;)
2008-03-25T23:40:05  <gizmach> I never tried to learn it
2008-03-25T23:40:14  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: vouleZ
2008-03-25T23:40:41  <TheSheep> xorAxAx: hah! a sudden come back of memries! ;)
2008-03-25T23:40:42  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: which is complete nonsense of course because its the polite form
2008-03-25T23:41:09  <TheSheep> xorAxAx: and the answer is 'Niet, ya uze kuchal'
2008-03-25T23:41:53  <TheSheep> xorAxAx: which means "No, I have already eaten" in Russian
2008-03-25T23:42:04  <xorAxAx> gizmach: how many croatian people dare to learn hungarian?
2008-03-25T23:42:11  <xorAxAx> must be a pretty exotic and interesting language
2008-03-25T23:42:32  <xorAxAx> but even here, nearly nobody learns finnish (which is from the same family)
2008-03-25T23:42:40  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: ah
2008-03-25T23:42:42  <gizmach> xorAxAx: I think many of them cause some people have a half hungarian families
2008-03-25T23:43:23  <gizmach> xorAxAx: I'm from the coast so may peaople knows italian there
2008-03-25T23:43:27  <xorAxAx> gizmach: ah
2008-03-25T23:43:43  <xorAxAx> how about romanian?
2008-03-25T23:44:09  <xorAxAx> is still the same family as italian
2008-03-25T23:44:12  <gizmach> I don't know anyone that speaks romanian
2008-03-25T23:44:29  <gizmach> I dono, don't think so
2008-03-25T23:44:49  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, are you in Hungary atm, or what? ;)
2008-03-25T23:44:53  <xorAxAx> indeed,WP says that romanian isnt very wide spread
2008-03-25T23:44:58  <xorAxAx> grzywacz: no, why :)
2008-03-25T23:45:05  <grzywacz> <xorAxAx> but even here, nearly nobody learns finnish (which is from the same family)
2008-03-25T23:45:08  * grzywacz confused ;)
2008-03-25T23:45:14  <xorAxAx> grzywacz: here in germany
2008-03-25T23:45:29  <xorAxAx> grzywacz: same family as hungarian, thats why i was having this analogy :-)
2008-03-25T23:45:39  <TheSheep> xorAxAx: finnish is a germanic langauage?
2008-03-25T23:45:45  <gizmach> xorAxAx: ok back to my projects :P
2008-03-25T23:45:46  <TheSheep> ah
2008-03-25T23:45:50  <gizmach> (just kidding)
2008-03-25T23:46:02  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, aaaah, understood why you used "here", ok
2008-03-25T23:46:03  <grzywacz> ;)
2008-03-25T23:46:42  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: no! :-)
2008-03-25T23:46:48  <xorAxAx> gizmach: hehe
2008-03-25T23:46:52  * grzywacz has just hacked ltris so that it can be played on a DDR mat
2008-03-25T23:46:53  <grzywacz> ;->
2008-03-25T23:47:12  <TheSheep> grzywacz: evil
2008-03-25T23:47:18  <xorAxAx> grzywacz: ltris?
2008-03-25T23:47:19  <grzywacz> I know. ];>
2008-03-25T23:47:21  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, tetris
2008-03-25T23:47:34  <xorAxAx> on the PC?
2008-03-25T23:47:37  <TheSheep> grzywacz: hack a netris server so that you can have teams
2008-03-25T23:47:40  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, on Linux, to be exact.
2008-03-25T23:47:44  <xorAxAx> cool
2008-03-25T23:47:49  <xorAxAx> sounds sportive
2008-03-25T23:47:55  <grzywacz> Sounds like broken legs.
2008-03-25T23:48:06  <grzywacz> I'm going to make people play it on the convention next weekend. ];>
2008-03-25T23:48:23  <TheSheep> grzywacz: you're coming to pyrkon?
2008-03-25T23:48:33  <grzywacz> TheSheep, nope, Magnificon @ Krk
2008-03-25T23:48:39  <TheSheep> shame
2008-03-25T23:48:47  <grzywacz> Maybe. :)
2008-03-25T23:49:32  <grzywacz> TheSheep, why would you want teams in netris anyway?
2008-03-25T23:49:54  <TheSheep> grzywacz: so that you can have a league and tournaments, of course
2008-03-25T23:49:56  <xorAxAx> teams ... wouldnt that end up like twister?
2008-03-25T23:50:08  <TheSheep> grzywacz: we have a big community of players here
2008-03-25T23:50:17  <grzywacz> Cascading? oh lol...
2008-03-25T23:50:26  <grzywacz> TheSheep, netris is cool, so I'm not surprised
2008-03-25T23:50:37  <grzywacz> TheSheep, I used to play it often when I hanged out on #linuxpl :P
2008-03-25T23:50:51  <grzywacz> netris and bzflag, which also rules when you have a group of friends to play with.
2008-03-25T23:51:56  <xorAxAx> hehe, my sister had been playing bzflag a few years ago
2008-03-25T23:51:59  <TheSheep> grzywacz: we are trying to get some students write a simple dispatcher for teams
2008-03-25T23:52:10  <xorAxAx> (in a team)
2008-03-25T23:52:15  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, :-)
2008-03-25T23:52:16  <TheSheep> grzywacz: as a university project
2008-03-25T23:52:20  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, it's quite addictive
2008-03-25T23:52:36  <nwp> TheSheep: probably hard to stop them from getting distracted and playing it instead
2008-03-25T23:52:40  <grzywacz> TheSheep, students nowdays... I hope it's not as bad there in Poznan as it got on my uni ;)
2008-03-25T23:52:42  <xorAxAx> grzywacz: i like wesnoth better. bzflag only for short sessions
2008-03-25T23:52:50  <nwp> XTank!
2008-03-25T23:52:55  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, absolutely.
2008-03-25T23:53:00  <xorAxAx> whats that, nwp?
2008-03-25T23:53:05  <TheSheep> grzywacz: there are 3 or 4 students who actually do something on each year
2008-03-25T23:53:14  <grzywacz> TheSheep, sounds about right. Sad reality.
2008-03-25T23:53:30  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: the others are "testers"?
2008-03-25T23:53:37  <nwp> hehe... old X game where you (or a bot) drive a tank that you've designed. Overhead view, can play "Ultimate" too
2008-03-25T23:53:40  <gizmach> TheSheep: at ur university or just general?
2008-03-25T23:53:50  <xorAxAx> nwp: is it FOSS?
2008-03-25T23:53:51  <nwp> so driving around a maze shooting the other tanks
2008-03-25T23:53:57  <nwp> xorAxAx: yes
2008-03-25T23:53:58  <TheSheep> xorAxAx: the others came here only to get their diploma with minimal effort
2008-03-25T23:54:08  <xorAxAx> hmm, if the tank cant jump, its completly unrealistic and boring
2008-03-25T23:54:26  <grzywacz> Can't jump? Why would anyone bother playing anything like that?
2008-03-25T23:54:45  <TheSheep> metal slug? :)
2008-03-25T23:54:56  <grzywacz> Hush. That's mostly illegal. :P
2008-03-25T23:54:56  <nwp> xorAxAx: very old, pre-sensible licenses. So I spent months finding and getting in touch with the original authors and getting permission to release a new BSD-licensed version. Before running out of time to actually get the release together
2008-03-25T23:54:57  <xorAxAx> nwp: hmm, no deb in debian?
2008-03-25T23:55:12  <xorAxAx> ah
2008-03-25T23:55:12  <nwp> xorAxAx: no, see above
2008-03-25T23:55:33  <nwp> xorAxAx: very cool though. And one ridiculously cool threading hack
2008-03-25T23:55:49  <xorAxAx> which one? :)
2008-03-25T23:56:00  <nwp> -DTHREAD_MP
2008-03-25T23:56:14  <nwp> uses longjmp, basically, to thread between the different bots
2008-03-25T23:56:20  <TheSheep> hacked tank threads so that it cannot jump?
2008-03-25T23:56:43  <grzywacz> nwp, so like cooperative threading?
2008-03-25T23:56:48  <nwp> TheSheep: White Tanks Can't Jump
2008-03-25T23:57:11  <nwp> grzywacz: can't remember exactly how it decided when to switch thread
2008-03-25T23:57:29  <nwp> need to get a release together
2008-03-25T23:57:34  <xorAxAx> nwp: ah
2008-03-25T23:57:49  <nwp> every time I have it working gcc moves the effing goalposts
2008-03-25T23:58:03  <TheSheep> lol
2008-03-25T23:58:04  <nwp> used --traditional until that stopped working
2008-03-25T23:58:50  <xorAxAx> ship your own cc, how about an tcc fork? :)
2008-03-25T23:58:52  <TheSheep> that's what you get for hacks
2008-03-25T23:58:57  <nwp> TheSheep: worth looking at if you want a project for students though
2008-03-25T23:59:13  <nwp> let me know if interested ;-)
2008-03-25T23:59:18  <grzywacz> I've seen a really interesting "fake"-threading library for C a while ago... Can't remember the name now... :S
2008-03-25T23:59:23  <xorAxAx> nwp: what does it make suitable for students?