MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2007-11-13

2007-11-13T13:02:47  <CIA-32> moin: Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 2335:166dd36fc7e2 1.6/MoinMoin/security/antispam.py: small cosmetical fix to antispam logging
2007-11-13T15:26:45  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: didn't you push the getText escape stuff to 1.7?
2007-11-13T15:27:42  <johill> that's why I'm getting that problem in fullsearch, you fixed it in 1.6
2007-11-13T15:41:47  <ThomasWaldmann> johill: for 1.7 we will have to do the same review with forward ports as with backports for 1.6 recently
2007-11-13T15:42:17  <ThomasWaldmann> johill:
2007-11-13T15:42:59  <johill> ok
2007-11-13T15:43:01  <ThomasWaldmann> (i currently try to concentrate on 1.6 so we can release in december, 1.7 has more time left)
2007-11-13T15:43:22  <johill> sure
2007-11-13T17:34:06  <grzybacz> Uhm.
2007-11-13T17:34:18  <xorAxAx> hi grzybacz
2007-11-13T17:34:21  <grzybacz> xorAxAx, hi
2007-11-13T17:34:34  <grzybacz> xorAxAx: can't we get a proper bug tracker before socks? ;-)
2007-11-13T17:34:46  <grzybacz> MoinMoinBugs hurts
2007-11-13T17:35:15  <starshine> I think other than it needs sorting, an easy way to generate wads of subpages is good
2007-11-13T17:35:32  <starshine> if that's not an already offered macro for general use it should be
2007-11-13T17:35:48  <grzybacz> huh?
2007-11-13T17:35:51  <grzybacz> ThomasWaldmann
2007-11-13T17:36:42  <grzybacz> As a side note: I have text in some strange language on http://moinmo.in/CategoryEasy
2007-11-13T17:36:49  <starshine> I mean, people have asked me many times for ways to have lots of subpages, which the dinky-form at the bottom of MoinMoinBugs is what they were looking for.  usually professors.
2007-11-13T17:37:09  <johill> starshine: that's the NewPage macro
2007-11-13T17:37:15  <johill> it's fairly flexible
2007-11-13T17:37:19  <johill> or what are you referring to?
2007-11-13T17:37:37  <starshine> :D
2007-11-13T17:37:55  <grzybacz> ...
2007-11-13T17:38:13  <starshine> johill: yes, that.  I pointed them at the MoinMoinBugs page as a living example.
2007-11-13T17:38:19  <johill> oh ok
2007-11-13T17:38:34  <grzybacz> ThomasWaldmann: like, seriously. This page is a pain. It seems unmaintained and is difficult to navigate.
2007-11-13T17:38:45  <johill> grzybacz: with the new storage code we'll write a new bug tracker ;)
2007-11-13T17:38:48  <johill> within moin
2007-11-13T17:38:55  <grzybacz> What for?
2007-11-13T17:39:09  <johill> proof of concept. storage code enables url namespace applications
2007-11-13T17:39:21  <johill> also for having the wiki markup available in the bug tracker etc
2007-11-13T17:39:30  <grzybacz> @_@
2007-11-13T17:39:30  <moinBot> grzybacz: Error: "_@" is not a valid command.
2007-11-13T17:39:36  <grzybacz> moinBot: you fail
2007-11-13T17:39:36  <moinBot> grzybacz: Error: "you" is not a valid command.
2007-11-13T17:39:43  <grzybacz> As I said. ;-)
2007-11-13T17:40:47  <johill> I might be rewriting moin before that though ;)
2007-11-13T17:41:09  <xorAxAx> we could also use trac :
2007-11-13T17:41:11  <xorAxAx> -)
2007-11-13T17:41:30  <johill> I never really liked that either but hey, it's probably better
2007-11-13T17:41:38  <johill> as long as it's not mantis ;)
2007-11-13T17:41:55  <xorAxAx> hehe
2007-11-13T17:42:03  <xorAxAx> trac is pretty flexible
2007-11-13T17:42:08  <xorAxAx> you can even configure the workflow
2007-11-13T17:42:17  <johill> whatever that means
2007-11-13T17:42:24  <johill> (it probably means that it dictates workflow...)
2007-11-13T17:42:51  <xorAxAx> but its worse when it comes to notification
2007-11-13T17:42:57  <johill> heh
2007-11-13T17:42:58  <xorAxAx> johill: no, it doesnt
2007-11-13T17:43:04  <xorAxAx> thats configurable
2007-11-13T17:43:18  <johill> I don't see what sort of workflow a bugtracker has
2007-11-13T17:43:26  <johill> I know it does all sorts of project management integration too but
2007-11-13T17:43:38  <xorAxAx> johill: ...
2007-11-13T17:43:55  <johill> where's the workflow?
2007-11-13T17:44:25  <xorAxAx> this is a classical opensource workflow: http://trac.edgewall.org/attachment/wiki/WorkFlow/opensource-workflow.large.png
2007-11-13T17:44:42  <xorAxAx> its a bit overnegineered, though IMHO
2007-11-13T17:45:00  <xorAxAx> this one is pretty typical in the wild when it comes to larger customers: http://trac.edgewall.org/attachment/wiki/WorkFlow/enterprise-workflow.large.png
2007-11-13T17:45:01  <johill> eww
2007-11-13T17:45:16  <johill> ok so you have to hack in the transitions?
2007-11-13T17:45:27  <xorAxAx> no
2007-11-13T17:45:39  <xorAxAx> it ships a few profiles
2007-11-13T17:46:10  * xorAxAx was fine with the default workflow
2007-11-13T17:46:41  <johill> hmm
2007-11-13T17:46:57  <johill> I guess it can be useful
2007-11-13T17:47:16  <johill> but with the open source workflow it's just stolen from bugzilla ;)
2007-11-13T17:54:01  <grzybacz> Workflows are not patentable, are they? ;-)
2007-11-13T17:56:00  <grzybacz> ThomasWaldmann: we need trac :>
2007-11-13T17:56:14  <grzybacz> bbl, going home now
2007-11-13T19:26:47  <grzywacz> re
2007-11-13T20:40:38  <ThomasWaldmann> FullSearchCached talks french to me :D
2007-11-13T20:40:55  <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/CategoryEasy
2007-11-13T20:41:10  <xorAxAx> for me it was chinese once
2007-11-13T20:41:37  <starshine> related to last user of cache?
2007-11-13T20:42:59  <ThomasWaldmann> now it's german. but it is malfunctioning anyway, it should search for the pagename if no param is given
2007-11-13T20:43:39  <ThomasWaldmann> we have exactly 0 CategoryEasy pages
2007-11-13T20:43:57  <ThomasWaldmann> looks like noone worked on it 8|
2007-11-13T21:12:04  * ThomasWaldmann makes a list of system text translations needing help
2007-11-13T21:25:07  <ThomasWaldmann> we have our first 30 tasks :)
2007-11-13T21:49:36  <xorAxAx> haha
2007-11-13T21:52:55  <grzywacz> lol
2007-11-13T21:57:28  <ThomasWaldmann> hopefully this project will be very international :)
2007-11-13T21:57:48  <xorAxAx> well
2007-11-13T21:58:16  <xorAxAx> young aliens knowing english and their own mother tongue well enough in these technical env might be hard to find
2007-11-13T21:58:25  <xorAxAx> but we'll see
2007-11-13T21:59:56  <ThomasWaldmann> well, if they don't know english, we maybe will never see them as they won't notice that project
2007-11-13T22:01:02  <xorAxAx> they might understand what g***l* means and what their ann. says but not what our system texts say
2007-11-13T22:06:41  <ThomasWaldmann> any ideas about how we define i18n tasks in a fair/good way?
2007-11-13T22:07:24  <xorAxAx> first of all, we might want to have multiple of them for some languages
2007-11-13T22:07:45  <xorAxAx> those that are expected to be popular and need more than just a bit of care
2007-11-13T22:08:17  <xorAxAx> because we might get a student who did it badly but nevertheless showed effort
2007-11-13T22:08:24  <xorAxAx> or doesnt that make sense?
2007-11-13T22:08:52  <ThomasWaldmann> well, we can have parallelism or we can break it into small pieces
2007-11-13T22:09:07  <ThomasWaldmann> (600 phrases are a bit big for one student)
2007-11-13T22:09:07  <xorAxAx> i was thining about doing it twice sometimes
2007-11-13T22:09:42  <ThomasWaldmann> otoh, who judges whether zh1 or zh2 is better? :D
2007-11-13T22:10:22  <xorAxAx> zh1?
2007-11-13T22:10:40  <ThomasWaldmann> chinese
2007-11-13T22:11:04  * ThomasWaldmann cant read chinese and choose the better student's stuff
2007-11-13T22:11:46  <xorAxAx> indeed, thats an issue
2007-11-13T22:11:50  <ThomasWaldmann> and we can't count on a language maintainer for quite some languages (otherwise they would not have that many missing phrases)
2007-11-13T22:12:06  <xorAxAx> and we may not have review tasks
2007-11-13T22:13:13  <ThomasWaldmann> you mean tasks depending on another?
2007-11-13T22:14:39  <xorAxAx> yes
2007-11-13T22:19:25  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, I suggest classifying tasks in [h], not [d]
2007-11-13T22:20:01  <xorAxAx> yes
2007-11-13T22:20:07  <ThomasWaldmann> because 1d can be 3..12h, depending on how you interpret it
2007-11-13T22:21:10  <ThomasWaldmann> so how many h do we have per task?
2007-11-13T22:22:25  <xorAxAx> i would say 10 - 14 h
2007-11-13T22:22:34  <xorAxAx> incl. learning phase
2007-11-13T22:22:58  <ThomasWaldmann> for the system text translation, is 60 phrases / h a good estimate?
2007-11-13T22:23:17  <xorAxAx> hmm, yes
2007-11-13T22:23:46  <xorAxAx> because ours are not as long as wesnoths ones :)
2007-11-13T22:23:52  <xorAxAx> grzywacz: what do you think?
2007-11-13T22:24:14  <ThomasWaldmann> (that would mean even a complete po file is still 1 task)
2007-11-13T22:24:39  <xorAxAx> yes
2007-11-13T22:25:20  <grzywacz> 60/h...
2007-11-13T22:25:55  <grzywacz> Hard to tell. If they have to ask us about context and irc response times into account, it may drop below that.
2007-11-13T22:26:10  <xorAxAx> yes
2007-11-13T22:29:28  <ThomasWaldmann> but otoh, many single words are done in a sec
2007-11-13T22:30:02  <ThomasWaldmann> also, you don't need much learning phase
2007-11-13T22:31:48  <xorAxAx> and the questions of developers are quite seldom here on irc
2007-11-13T22:32:02  <xorAxAx> but mostly because they know what the general technical terms mean
2007-11-13T22:34:38  <ThomasWaldmann> also, if someone has 600 phrases to do and a few of them are not done or not perfect, we won't kill him because of that :D
2007-11-13T22:34:55  <xorAxAx> yep
2007-11-13T22:35:18  <xorAxAx> but maybe the users who nearly died because of laughing after seeing the weird choices of words
2007-11-13T22:36:04  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, so every i18n po file is 1 task
2007-11-13T22:36:24  <ThomasWaldmann> do we "fill up" the small ones with system and help pages?
2007-11-13T22:36:43  <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. if there are only 100 phrases to do?
2007-11-13T22:36:48  <xorAxAx> makes sense
2007-11-13T22:36:57  <xorAxAx> otherwise it would look unfair for a person
2007-11-13T22:39:54  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, so we just could tell "create 40KB of text in your native language"
2007-11-13T22:40:09  <ThomasWaldmann> that is either a complete po file
2007-11-13T22:40:26  <ThomasWaldmann> or a little po plus some system/help pages
2007-11-13T22:44:19  <xorAxAx> umm, 40 kb of system pages is a lot
2007-11-13T22:44:31  <xorAxAx> .po files have a large overhead
2007-11-13T22:44:50  <xorAxAx> on a system page, you need to understand more complex sentences and relations
2007-11-13T22:45:03  <ThomasWaldmann> (.de == 74KB)
2007-11-13T22:45:20  <xorAxAx> hmm
2007-11-13T22:45:32  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, maybe it is rather 30KB
2007-11-13T22:48:35  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, it is 30KB
2007-11-13T23:01:41  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, do we create a new page hierarchy, like Task/* ?
2007-11-13T23:03:04  <ThomasWaldmann> currently we only have pages for bugs or features, but not for other work
2007-11-13T23:06:19  <xorAxAx> not sure if that makes sense
2007-11-13T23:06:50  <xorAxAx> because the i18n tasks dont need their own page in the wiki, there are a translation sites and the bug item in the other system
2007-11-13T23:07:06  <xorAxAx> maybe there is some kind of task (like the marketing ones) that would benefit
2007-11-13T23:08:22  <ThomasWaldmann> i thought about only posting very few information to the remote tracker and just include a reference to our wiki
2007-11-13T23:09:02  <xorAxAx> i think their pages must be pretty verbose
2007-11-13T23:09:08  <xorAxAx> can you check the rules again?
2007-11-13T23:09:16  <xorAxAx> (for contest reasons)
2007-11-13T23:11:12  <ThomasWaldmann> they said posting a bug url is ok, iirc
2007-11-13T23:26:12  <ThomasWaldmann> Well documented and defined, e.g. in a project's issue tracker or wiki, or in the task entry itself, so that a contestant will not have trouble determining what is expected for completion
2007-11-13T23:31:24  <starshine> /37/37
2007-11-13T23:31:30  <starshine> woops :)
2007-11-13T23:31:56  <xorAxAx> o
2007-11-13T23:31:58  <xorAxAx> k
2007-11-13T23:32:20  <dreimark_> starshine: ?
2007-11-13T23:39:37  <starshine> dreimark_: I was trying to switch windows by number. for some reason I typed it twice.