2007-04-17T00:00:03 <flowhase> also i thought i create a new key just for opensource repo accesses
2007-04-17T00:00:30 <flowhase> cause the other keys are one lowsec-key for random accounts on machines around the globe and one key for root-access to some boxes
2007-04-17T00:00:47 <xorAxAx> ah, you can loop mount dmg files
2007-04-17T00:02:18 <flowhase> this whole password thing kind of worries me ... i should get something like a smartcard and put all keys password-freed on a gpg-crypted usb-stick or something like that
2007-04-17T00:02:37 <flowhase> i got a brain like swiss cheese already ... passwords are kinda bad for me :>
2007-04-17T00:03:17 <flowhase> oh fuck
2007-04-17T00:03:20 <flowhase> wait a sec
2007-04-17T00:03:26 <grzywacz> O_o;
2007-04-17T00:04:44 <flowhase> ok, i really should get some mental training
2007-04-17T00:04:59 <flowhase> just found a little snippet in my wallet
2007-04-17T00:05:12 <flowhase> i DID write down the passphrase ...
2007-04-17T00:05:52 <CIA-28> moin: Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> * 1997:1bf17e0dd6f1 /MoinMoin/formatter/text_html.py: better alt/title for drawings
2007-04-17T00:06:28 * flowhase swallows the piece of paper, meditates a few seconds and hopes this incident vanishes from your minds as fast as it was reported
2007-04-17T00:06:51 <grzywacz> You didn't actually swallow it, did you?
2007-04-17T00:07:01 <xorAxAx> let me guess, it was "tooMuchThcToday"? :)
2007-04-17T00:07:19 <flowhase> xorAxAx: didn't do drugs since several weeks
2007-04-17T00:07:23 <xorAxAx> :)
2007-04-17T00:07:44 <flowhase> grzywacz: no, i just wanted to make it sound more dramatic ;>
2007-04-17T00:07:53 <grzywacz> Thought so. :P
2007-04-17T00:08:57 <flowhase> i will put the passphrases i created the last few weeks into my gpg-reminder-file as soon as i am home on a networkless trustworthy computer
2007-04-17T00:09:37 <flowhase> damnit ... new dedicated server, new ssh-keys, db-passwords at work ... a bit too much to remember over the last few weeks
2007-04-17T00:10:05 * grzywacz remembers all his passwords
2007-04-17T00:10:11 <flowhase> who is working on this authentication-thingy for moinmoin again? :>
2007-04-17T00:10:18 <grzywacz> johill?
2007-04-17T00:10:25 <flowhase> grzywacz: i remember most of the ancient ones
2007-04-17T00:10:49 <grzywacz> |Kev|, documentation for sleekxmpp is quite sparse as well ;)
2007-04-17T00:10:57 <flowhase> grzywacz: they go deep down to personal incidents which i will never forget
2007-04-17T00:11:31 <flowhase> perhaps i need to create some new big impressive moments in my life to gather new passphrases
2007-04-17T00:12:06 <flowhase> or simply try to get a more calm and focused mind
2007-04-17T00:12:37 <flowhase> which i will actually start on 27th this month ... going to a zen dojo introduction then
2007-04-17T00:13:09 <xorAxAx> grzywacz: is that an argument? good software has bad docs, look at moin :)
2007-04-17T00:13:29 <grzywacz> xorAxAx, more like a simple statement ;)
2007-04-17T00:13:38 <grzywacz> I'm yet to see a well-documented xmpp lib. :P
2007-04-17T00:14:01 <ThomasWaldmann> ZDF (for the german folks)
2007-04-17T00:14:08 <flowhase> ThomasWaldmann: whats there?
2007-04-17T00:14:15 <grzywacz> My bttv module fails in 64-bit kernel ;<
2007-04-17T00:14:24 * xorAxAx inserts his dvb-t key
2007-04-17T00:14:44 <ThomasWaldmann> Ijon Tichy: Raumpilot
2007-04-17T00:15:50 <grzywacz> Lem 8)
2007-04-17T00:25:12 <|Kev|> grzywacz: I don't doubt it, it's a new library
2007-04-17T00:25:28 <|Kev|> I'll poke the author RightNow(tm)
2007-04-17T00:25:37 <grzywacz> No problem :D
2007-04-17T00:27:24 <lanius> ThomasWaldmann: i'm thinking how we can do the design of the storage layer more effective
2007-04-17T00:27:45 <|Kev|> grzywacz: there's http://code.google.com/p/sleekxmpp/wiki/Documentation at the moment, but yes, sparse
2007-04-17T00:27:55 <grzywacz> That's what I mean.
2007-04-17T00:28:03 <lanius> ThomasWaldmann: only irc and me editing the diagramm is suboptimal
2007-04-17T00:30:16 <xorAxAx> lanius: did you have a look at the editors that i named?
2007-04-17T00:30:23 <ThomasWaldmann> this is why i suggested text format
2007-04-17T00:30:36 * xorAxAx thinks that text format is not suitable :)
2007-04-17T00:31:17 <lanius> yeah, i just tried text format, it is not
2007-04-17T00:31:32 <lanius> i think i will try argouml and submit the uml so everybody can edit
2007-04-17T00:31:38 <xorAxAx> lanius: esp. dia and argouml may be suitable
2007-04-17T00:31:58 <xorAxAx> and maybe checking them into hg instead of using the wiki?
2007-04-17T00:32:01 <xorAxAx> (faster roundtrip)
2007-04-17T00:32:18 <xorAxAx> argouml writes out fine xml data :)
2007-04-17T00:32:58 <lanius> the advantage of the wiki is that you can comment on it
2007-04-17T00:33:07 <ThomasWaldmann> http://argoeclipse.tigris.org/ :)
2007-04-17T00:33:29 <lanius> :D
2007-04-17T00:35:01 <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: interesting
2007-04-17T00:35:38 <xorAxAx> "it includes: Synchronized source code and UML views of code (future)"
2007-04-17T00:35:40 <xorAxAx> ah?
2007-04-17T00:35:48 <xorAxAx> it includes the future? sounds pythonic
2007-04-17T00:37:08 <|Kev|> my brother works at a software house where they use UML models for code generation, interestingly
2007-04-17T00:37:16 <|Kev|> what they do's really quite fancy
2007-04-17T00:38:22 <xorAxAx> |Kev|: which tool? rose? :)
2007-04-17T00:38:38 <|Kev|> they use a lot of their own UML transforms, I don't know what else they use
2007-04-17T00:39:58 <xorAxAx> hmm, they have written their own xmi2code translator? :)
2007-04-17T00:40:06 * xorAxAx imagines a 10 MB xslt file :)
2007-04-17T00:40:13 <|Kev|> I don't know how they do it
2007-04-17T00:40:35 <|Kev|> I do know that they're all smart people, and that my brother, a pretty bright chap, considers himself one of the least able people there
2007-04-17T00:40:50 <xorAxAx> wow
2007-04-17T00:41:00 * xorAxAx wished he could say similar things about himself
2007-04-17T00:41:16 <|Kev|> oh, anyone can claim to be bright themselves
2007-04-17T00:41:19 <ThomasWaldmann> if you want to see someone with eclipse at 640x480 or so, look at the argoeclipse swf screencast X)
2007-04-17T00:41:24 <|Kev|> the accolade is when other people say it of you :)
2007-04-17T00:42:14 <|Kev|> and, well, he's my brother, I have to be nice
2007-04-17T00:43:24 <xorAxAx> |Kev|: i meant the cow-orkers part :)
2007-04-17T00:45:16 <|Kev|> you wish you could say they were brighter than you? o_O
2007-04-17T00:47:24 <xorAxAx> yes!
2007-04-17T00:47:34 <xorAxAx> |Kev|: isnt the reason obvious?
2007-04-17T00:47:52 <|Kev|> it's not, but I agree
2007-04-17T00:47:58 <|Kev|> it's good to have smart people around
2007-04-17T00:49:29 <xorAxAx> its pretty annoying to be stopped by cow-orkers who are not :)
2007-04-17T00:50:01 <grzywacz> Being the least capable member of a team is not good either. ;)
2007-04-17T00:50:09 <|Kev|> indeed not
2007-04-17T00:50:15 <|Kev|> I sit somewhere between, I think
2007-04-17T00:50:41 <|Kev|> my job is a bit unusual, though, as I sit partway between industry and a university
2007-04-17T00:51:06 <|Kev|> I work at a business 90% of the time, but am paid by the university, to produce products for the business, using knowledge from the uni
2007-04-17T00:51:17 <|Kev|> not being the smartest person on a team is quite easy in that situation
2007-04-17T00:51:24 <xorAxAx> some kind of knowledge transfer stuff?
2007-04-17T00:51:29 <xorAxAx> or how do they call it?
2007-04-17T00:51:36 <|Kev|> indeed
2007-04-17T00:51:36 <|Kev|> KTP
2007-04-17T00:51:43 <|Kev|> Knowledge Transfer Partnerships
2007-04-17T00:52:14 <xorAxAx> and the university is funded by whom doing such projects?
2007-04-17T00:52:19 <xorAxAx> public foundings?
2007-04-17T00:52:29 <xorAxAx> indeed, according to WP
2007-04-17T00:52:31 <|Kev|> split between the government and the business
2007-04-17T00:53:22 <grzywacz> Anyway, I don't think I need to use uml in my project... Communication patters are going to be rather simple. :)
2007-04-17T00:53:59 <xorAxAx> depends ... :)
2007-04-17T00:54:14 <xorAxAx> think about the notifications issue, when will who notificate whom why?
2007-04-17T00:54:30 <grzywacz> Wiki will notify the daemon on specified actions.
2007-04-17T00:54:32 <xorAxAx> about what, where? :)
2007-04-17T00:54:51 <xorAxAx> very nice abstraction of the problem context
2007-04-17T00:54:54 <xorAxAx> :-)
2007-04-17T00:55:16 <grzywacz> The other way round, when the daemon receives a command, it will act like a normal wiki process.
2007-04-17T00:56:19 <grzywacz> I haven't read the code thoroughly, but...
2007-04-17T00:56:33 <grzywacz> Aren't "actions" used to perform most of the request handling work?
2007-04-17T00:56:43 <lanius> i uploadeded a zargo file which currently has the same state as the image
2007-04-17T00:56:52 <|Kev|> grzywacz: perhaps it would be interesting to have a look at class.jabber.php applications?
2007-04-17T00:57:17 <|Kev|> I only say that, because being php webapps, they have to deal with the whole session / non-session thing
2007-04-17T00:58:14 <lanius> xorAxAx: ThomasWaldmann: so feel free to edit it :D
2007-04-17T00:58:41 <grzywacz> |Kev|, that's not going to be the case here, I believe. Due to separation of communication processes.
2007-04-17T00:58:54 <|Kev|> fair enough
2007-04-17T01:01:02 <|Kev|> hell, gone midnight
2007-04-17T01:01:10 <|Kev|> gnight, nice to meet people ;)
2007-04-17T01:01:18 <lanius> n8 |Kev|
2007-04-17T01:01:22 <xorAxAx> gn |Kev|
2007-04-17T01:01:23 <grzywacz> night :)
2007-04-17T01:01:30 <lanius> i will go to sleep as well
2007-04-17T01:01:33 <lanius> cu guys
2007-04-17T01:01:34 <xorAxAx> .oO(ke<TAB><TAB><TAB>)
2007-04-17T01:01:49 <grzywacz> bye lanius
2007-04-17T01:01:53 <xorAxAx> gn lanius
2007-04-17T01:14:29 <grzywacz> 2 monitors == I can work with eclipse -_-;
2007-04-17T01:18:37 <xorAxAx> :-)
2007-04-17T01:23:26 <grzywacz> Hm, RequestBase is really long...
2007-04-17T01:24:51 <ThomasWaldmann> argoeclipse needs jdk 1.5
2007-04-17T01:26:30 <xorAxAx> grzywacz: yes, and kind of legacy IMHO :)
2007-04-17T01:26:36 <xorAxAx> because of WSGI
2007-04-17T01:26:47 <grzywacz> WSGI?
2007-04-17T01:27:05 <xorAxAx> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0333/
2007-04-17T01:27:20 <grzywacz> hm
2007-04-17T01:27:21 <xorAxAx> based on the decorator pattern - you can simply wrap a server adapter around your app
2007-04-17T01:27:29 <xorAxAx> and deploy it everywhere
2007-04-17T01:28:02 <xorAxAx> moin would have to ship a few of the adapters in contrib and there would need to be some testing (if anybody wanted to do the migration)
2007-04-17T01:28:12 <grzywacz> Interesting.
2007-04-17T01:28:42 <xorAxAx> (moin has a wsgi interface already)
2007-04-17T01:29:03 <grzywacz> Yes, that's what I understood from your statement.
2007-04-17T01:29:09 * grzywacz feels like getting a cold ;\
2007-04-17T02:39:15 <grzywacz> Good night.
2007-04-17T05:20:31 <flowhase> now, updated my personal wiki-pages
2007-04-17T05:20:53 <flowhase> tomorrow i will breed on Page.py again
2007-04-17T05:21:00 <flowhase> erm
2007-04-17T05:21:02 <flowhase> breed over
2007-04-17T05:21:19 <flowhase> gn8 and sleep well you folks
2007-04-17T09:13:05 <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2007-04-17T10:25:49 <dreimark> 1.6dev: local variable 'cookieitems' referenced before assignment
2007-04-17T10:26:29 <dreimark> line 421 in moin-1.6/MoinMoin/auth/__init__.py
2007-04-17T10:27:01 <dreimark> using MoinMoin/request/STANDALONE.py
2007-04-17T10:28:36 <dreimark> it does give a traceback only if you don't enter a password and do select login
2007-04-17T10:31:14 <dreimark> johill:changeset 1990:9051a3a23124
2007-04-17T10:32:18 <dreimark> bbl
2007-04-17T10:36:23 <grzywacz> moin
2007-04-17T11:07:41 <CIA-28> moin: Johannes Berg <johannes AT sipsolutions DOT net> * 1998:34391ad2825c /MoinMoin/auth/__init__.py:
2007-04-17T11:07:41 <CIA-28> moin: fix cookie handling
2007-04-17T11:07:41 <CIA-28> moin: When anon sessions are disabled 1990:9051a3a23124 introduced a
2007-04-17T11:07:41 <CIA-28> moin: bug. This fixes it.
2007-04-17T11:07:44 <CIA-28> moin: Johannes Berg <johannes AT sipsolutions DOT net> * 1999:a82f06dba7ca /MoinMoin/formatter/text_html.py: merge main
2007-04-17T11:08:31 <johill> ThomasWaldmann: fork stable, that way the potentially destabilising changes get more testing
2007-04-17T11:19:28 <johill> anybody seen this bug before?
2007-04-17T11:19:29 <johill> http://pasdoc.sipsolutions.net/PasDoc?action=info
2007-04-17T11:19:45 <johill> the attachment does indeed not work
2007-04-17T11:19:50 <johill> eh, exist
2007-04-17T11:29:17 <johill> dreimark: I fixed the bug, sorry about that
2007-04-17T11:36:44 <johill> ThomasWaldmann: I'm seeing a lot of stale sessions due to trail for anonymous users when openid clients hit the wiki since each of them gets a new session
2007-04-17T11:36:49 <johill> any idea how to handle that?
2007-04-17T11:42:27 <johill> ThomasWaldmann: or just call it 1.7 or something
2007-04-17T12:11:08 <johill> maybe we could start recording trail only when the session is not completely new
2007-04-17T12:11:24 <johill> that misses their first click, but I think that's acceptable
2007-04-17T12:11:40 <johill> (we could even try to restore that from the referrer)
2007-04-17T12:21:29 <dreimark> johill:fine, just saw it because of configuring/testing eclipse here
2007-04-17T12:21:52 <johill> yeah, I hadn't tested w/o anon sessions
2007-04-17T12:21:54 <johill> my mistake
2007-04-17T12:24:23 <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann:I don't know how the log import works of this channell,e.g. addrevision? I'd prefer during soc an import every 3h. It would be fine because of the time distances.
2007-04-17T12:25:29 <dreimark> nice to have
2007-04-17T12:49:45 <ThomasWaldmann> johill: maybe someone deleted the stuff in the file system
2007-04-17T12:49:56 <johill> I don't think I did
2007-04-17T12:50:03 <johill> and I'm the only one who has access
2007-04-17T12:50:15 <ThomasWaldmann> and the files are not there?
2007-04-17T12:50:53 <ThomasWaldmann> ah, btw, you can do an empty upload, maybe that also looks like that
2007-04-17T12:51:15 <ThomasWaldmann> (without selecting a file from your local disk)
2007-04-17T12:51:33 <johill> the files are not there, no
2007-04-17T12:52:08 <johill> actually, Michalis was telling me he did delete it, but via the attachfile action
2007-04-17T12:52:59 <johill> and that is, in fact, noted in the edit-log
2007-04-17T12:53:17 <johill> (see http://pasdoc.sipsolutions.net/PasDoc?action=info, I hacked it to not error out any more)
2007-04-17T12:54:01 <johill> I can give you the edit-log for that file if you want
2007-04-17T12:54:25 <ThomasWaldmann> and what is the problem then?
2007-04-17T12:54:40 <johill> well without my hack it tries to stat the file that doesn't exist
2007-04-17T12:54:47 <johill> and that raises an OSError which isn't trapped
2007-04-17T12:54:50 <johill> from AttachFile.size()
2007-04-17T12:55:10 <johill> maybe the problem is that the same filename was added and deleted twice?
2007-04-17T12:55:52 <ThomasWaldmann> ok, just commit a fix if you have one already
2007-04-17T12:56:09 <johill> well the fix is like if AttachFile.exists(): size = attachfile.size()
2007-04-17T12:56:14 <johill> instead of doing it unconditionally
2007-04-17T12:56:19 <johill> so the size is listed as 0 now
2007-04-17T12:57:00 <johill> I suppose it should be stored into the edit-log so you still know after the fact
2007-04-17T12:57:08 <johill> but that's a larger refactoring
2007-04-17T12:57:35 <ThomasWaldmann> the fix that it doesnt crash is enough
2007-04-17T12:57:41 <ThomasWaldmann> that code is dead anyway
2007-04-17T12:57:45 <johill> ok
2007-04-17T12:57:50 <johill> I'll commit that then, give me a minute
2007-04-17T12:59:02 <johill> done
2007-04-17T12:59:08 <CIA-28> moin: Johannes Berg <johannes AT sipsolutions DOT net> * 2000:f77a7f6bb560 /MoinMoin/action/info.py: info action: don't try to stat attachments that don't exist
2007-04-17T13:21:37 <johill> I failed trying to refactor the user display
2007-04-17T13:21:41 <johill> it's so all over the place :/
2007-04-17T13:22:26 <johill> and it sometimes tries to give you a wiki format and sometimes a html link
2007-04-17T13:30:37 <ThomasWaldmann> we can put it on the moin3000 list :)
2007-04-17T13:32:31 <johill> I need it for openid tho
2007-04-17T13:32:51 <johill> right now it links to yourwiki.tld/http://johannes.sipsolutions.net/ which isn't really useful
2007-04-17T13:34:58 <ThomasWaldmann> well, then let's try in small steps :)
2007-04-17T13:36:03 <johill> thing is that it's pretty much all over in theme etc
2007-04-17T13:37:23 <johill> other than that openid stuff works pretty well now
2007-04-17T13:38:38 <johill> I would like to be able to link existing accounts to an openid though
2007-04-17T13:38:54 <johill> but not sure how that should look like yet
2007-04-17T13:51:10 <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann, dreimark: i have extended the logging script to log instantly
2007-04-17T13:51:16 <xorAxAx> i can commit it soon
2007-04-17T13:51:38 <ThomasWaldmann> instantly?
2007-04-17T13:52:32 <xorAxAx> well, currently there is a 24 h delay
2007-04-17T13:52:43 <xorAxAx> the new one udates the wiki page instantly
2007-04-17T13:52:48 <xorAxAx> (without adding a revision)
2007-04-17T13:53:29 <ThomasWaldmann> ok
2007-04-17T14:00:48 <dreimark> xorAxAx: :)
2007-04-17T14:39:28 <grzywacz> Oook. I'm refreshing my blog so that it can serve as good place for progress reports...
2007-04-17T14:45:12 * ThomasWaldmann .oO(if you want comments, use a wiki page :)
2007-04-17T15:14:57 <|Kev|> blogs are handy for announcements though :)
2007-04-17T15:15:13 <xorAxAx> wikis are too :)
2007-04-17T15:15:58 <|Kev|> I encourage people to do both :)
2007-04-17T15:16:10 <dreimark> bbl t+3h
2007-04-17T15:58:04 <johill> I think I'll change my openid strategy and use it solely instead of the password so you still have to set a wiki username
2007-04-17T15:58:07 <grzywacz> Is it possible to discover browser's preferred language using JS?
2007-04-17T15:58:31 <johill> then again, that means you have a homepage on all wikis. hrm
2007-04-17T15:58:41 * johill looks what other wikis do
2007-04-17T16:00:10 <ThomasWaldmann> grzywacz: moin already knows what the user prefers, why do you need it in js?
2007-04-17T16:00:18 <grzywacz> ThomasWaldmann, for my blog.
2007-04-17T16:00:34 <grzywacz> I'd rather display UI in English when someone uses it rather than Polish.
2007-04-17T16:00:35 <grzywacz> ;)
2007-04-17T16:01:14 <johill> ah, there, that's a good solution
2007-04-17T16:03:32 <johill> of course, it means even more refactoring...
2007-04-17T16:06:26 <grzywacz> Hm.
2007-04-17T16:06:41 <grzywacz> Do other soc students show up here?
2007-04-17T16:06:55 <grzywacz> (Wrong question, they do, but...)
2007-04-17T16:08:51 <johill> is there any way to have a multi-stage login yet?
2007-04-17T16:08:57 <johill> I'd guess not
2007-04-17T16:16:05 <grzywacz> |Kev|, http://jabba.pl/grzywacz/lang/en
2007-04-17T16:16:20 <grzywacz> |Kev|, I still have to figure out how to make the interface language-aware ;-)
2007-04-17T16:16:21 <|Kev|> wonderful :)
2007-04-17T16:19:04 <johill> ok so how am I supposed to create URLs in HTML?
2007-04-17T16:19:09 <johill> request.getQualifiedURL(self.url(request,
2007-04-17T16:19:13 <johill> querystr={'action': 'serveopenid', 'yadis': '1'},
2007-04-17T16:19:16 <johill> craps out and doesn't encode the & as &
2007-04-17T16:19:17 <|Kev|> although now seemingly quite broken grzywacz
2007-04-17T16:19:19 <johill> relative=False,
2007-04-17T16:19:22 <johill> escape=True))
2007-04-17T16:19:31 <grzywacz> |Kev|, is it?
2007-04-17T16:19:37 <|Kev|> I can't reach the server
2007-04-17T16:19:43 <|Kev|> maybe it's a routing problem locally
2007-04-17T16:19:46 <grzywacz> Works for me. :)
2007-04-17T16:20:12 <|Kev|> it's the blog
2007-04-17T16:20:26 <|Kev|> I can get to higher levels, but not the blog
2007-04-17T16:20:52 <johill> I guess I need to fix that.. hrm
2007-04-17T16:20:56 <johill> oh well, off for now
2007-04-17T16:21:23 <|Kev|> grzywacz: and it's back
2007-04-17T16:21:25 <|Kev|> very odd
2007-04-17T16:21:53 <grzywacz> |Kev|, it usually works well
2007-04-17T16:22:05 <ThomasWaldmann> """ Return complete URL for this page, including scriptname.
2007-04-17T16:22:05 <ThomasWaldmann> The URL is NOT escaped, if you write it to HTML, use wikiutil.escape
2007-04-17T16:22:08 <ThomasWaldmann> (at least if you have a querystr, to escape the & chars).
2007-04-17T16:22:26 <johill> afterwards? hm ok
2007-04-17T16:22:35 <ThomasWaldmann> --> there is no escape=x
2007-04-17T16:22:47 <johill> heh ok
2007-04-17T16:22:49 * johill fixes
2007-04-17T16:22:50 <ThomasWaldmann> it is just a url
2007-04-17T16:24:02 <grzywacz> |Kev|, I still have to come up with a reasonable logo for this blog ;-)
2007-04-17T16:25:09 <|Kev|> looks nicer than my logo (http://kismith.co.uk)
2007-04-17T16:25:40 <grzywacz> Not really. It's just that I don't want to put my photo in there.
2007-04-17T16:25:52 <grzywacz> For some obscure privacy reasons. :P
2007-04-17T16:32:15 <grzywacz> |Kev|, so, what's the status of SleekXMPP? Should I start playing with it now, or wait a little bit longer? ;)
2007-04-17T16:35:04 <|Kev|> I wouldn't have thought there was any problem with starting playing now
2007-04-17T16:35:21 <|Kev|> you may as well see if it meets your needs :)
2007-04-17T16:36:19 <grzywacz> Ok. Was asking because you've mentioned getting involved with it, so maybe there was some important stuff planned for the near future. :)
2007-04-17T16:36:28 <|Kev|> oh, there is, for me
2007-04-17T16:36:37 <grzywacz> I see.
2007-04-17T16:36:46 <|Kev|> Fritzy's writing a bot framework using the library
2007-04-17T16:36:56 <|Kev|> which interests me, but possibly not you
2007-04-17T16:37:11 <grzywacz> Erm, I'm going to write a bot, actually.
2007-04-17T16:37:26 <|Kev|> then there's important stuff planned for the near future :)
2007-04-17T16:37:34 <|Kev|> also Data Forms, which you might find a use for
2007-04-17T16:38:00 <grzywacz> Yes, I was thinking about this as well, but in terms of some future development. I'm going to start with text-only interface.
2007-04-17T16:39:01 <grzywacz> haha
2007-04-17T16:39:09 <|Kev|> well, I think x:data's a really cool thing, but you're possibly right :)
2007-04-17T18:46:26 <grzywacz> |Kev|, wait, sleekxmpp requires python 2.5, no?
2007-04-17T18:46:37 <grzywacz> The "with" construct has been added in 2.5, I believe?
2007-04-17T18:47:34 <flowhase> hmm nice ... riding the bleeding edge
2007-04-17T18:48:03 <grzywacz> 2.5 is not exactly the bleeding edge. ;)
2007-04-17T18:49:09 <|Kev|> I've not tried it with earlier
2007-04-17T18:49:22 <grzywacz> ThomasWaldmann, are you there?
2007-04-17T18:49:35 <xorAxAx> grzywacz: yes, with is 2.5
2007-04-17T18:49:39 <flowhase> grzywacz: i know, it became the current release some time ago
2007-04-17T18:49:44 <xorAxAx> and no, we cant depend on 2.5 in 1.6
2007-04-17T18:51:37 <grzywacz> xorAxAx, 2.3, yes?
2007-04-17T18:52:56 <xorAxAx> currently we are on 2.3, yes
2007-04-17T18:53:00 <grzywacz> I understand that my work is supposed to work with 1.6?
2007-04-17T18:53:14 <grzywacz> work work... ;S
2007-04-17T18:53:26 <flowhase> :>
2007-04-17T18:53:49 <xorAxAx> grzywacz: yes
2007-04-17T18:54:01 <xorAxAx> you have 3 months :)
2007-04-17T18:54:06 <xorAxAx> + 2 months :)
2007-04-17T18:54:14 <grzywacz> Ok. This pretty much leaves pyxmpp as the only candidate. ;)
2007-04-17T18:54:27 <grzywacz> As I don't intend to write my own xmpp lib. :D
2007-04-17T18:56:23 <|Kev|> or just use sleek, and rework it slighly to not use 2.5 keywords
2007-04-17T18:56:46 <|Kev|> I think it'd be a terrible shame to not use it, given that it seems to me to be the best option
2007-04-17T18:59:30 <|Kev|> and the author's willing to make a 2.4 version
2007-04-17T18:59:35 <ThomasWaldmann> grzywacz: anything unclear still?
2007-04-17T18:59:44 <|Kev|> mmm, friends in low places ;)
2007-04-17T19:00:01 <grzywacz> ThomasWaldmann, nope. :)
2007-04-17T19:00:03 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, requiring 2.5 for a lib is ... brave? :)
2007-04-17T19:00:11 <|Kev|> it's a new lib
2007-04-17T19:00:20 <|Kev|> well, relatively
2007-04-17T19:00:46 <ThomasWaldmann> sure, new lib, but not all machines out there are fresh
2007-04-17T19:01:26 <|Kev|> I guess it depends what you're trying to achieve
2007-04-17T19:01:38 <|Kev|> if you want world domination, asap, you cater to the lowest common
2007-04-17T19:02:07 <|Kev|> if you want the best library now, or world domination in the long term, you use what you consider the best tools for the job
2007-04-17T19:07:26 <|Kev|> I guess as there are existing Python XMPP libraries that he wanted to do a better job than, he's going the second route
2007-04-17T19:07:40 <grzywacz> I think the keeping everything backwards compatible till dinosaurs makes no sense.
2007-04-17T19:07:51 <grzywacz> And as such I see no point in porting sleek to support 2.3...
2007-04-17T19:08:04 <ThomasWaldmann> we are not talking about py 1.5 compatibility :-P
2007-04-17T19:08:04 <|Kev|> ah, it can't even be 2.4?
2007-04-17T19:08:09 <grzywacz> |Kev|, no
2007-04-17T19:08:40 <grzywacz> It's a shame, actually. 2.3 is considered fairly ancient. Even debian installs 2.4
2007-04-17T19:08:41 <grzywacz> :-D
2007-04-17T19:08:50 <|Kev|> I wonder what version I'm running on my moinmoin machine
2007-04-17T19:09:03 <|Kev|> 2.5 on most of my machines, but that one's ancient
2007-04-17T19:09:06 <ThomasWaldmann> since etch, which is rather young
2007-04-17T19:09:30 <|Kev|> 2.3.5 :)
2007-04-17T19:09:48 <grzywacz> :>
2007-04-17T19:10:39 <ThomasWaldmann> I guess we raise the requirement for moin sometime in the future (mostly because newer stuff tends to have less bugs), too, but as long there is no pressing need...
2007-04-17T19:48:36 <skipm> hello
2007-04-17T19:50:52 <skip> hello?
2007-04-17T20:30:25 <ThomasWaldmann> hi skipm :)
2007-04-17T20:30:33 <skipm> hello
2007-04-17T20:30:59 <skipm> i'm just hanging out waiting for a chat at 1900GMT
2007-04-17T20:37:31 <neagulm> moin
2007-04-17T20:46:28 <dreimark> moin
2007-04-17T20:48:23 <dreimark> moin skipm,negulm
2007-04-17T20:48:34 <dreimark> moin neagulm
2007-04-17T20:48:35 <skipm> i'm here...
2007-04-17T20:48:49 <neagulm> moin skipm dreimark
2007-04-17T20:49:47 <dreimark> skipm, now you have 2pm your local time?
2007-04-17T20:50:11 <skipm> yes, i was wrong about my GMT offset - it's -5 w/ DST in effect...
2007-04-17T20:55:09 <dreimark> i need a moment organizing me and the system here
2007-04-17T20:55:25 <skipm> take your time. I'm at work, so I have plenty to do. ;-)
2007-04-17T21:01:31 <dreimark> neagulm: there was the question open last time we meet where to save meta data.
2007-04-17T21:01:44 <neagulm> dreimark, yes
2007-04-17T21:02:16 <dreimark> you can use similiar to Xapian os.path.join(self.request.cfg.cache_dir, 'classification')
2007-04-17T21:03:37 <dreimark> Xapian as example is located in MoinMoin.search
2007-04-17T21:05:01 <grzywacz> re
2007-04-17T21:05:07 <dreimark> that path is below data/cache of your instance
2007-04-17T21:06:25 <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: maybe you can just use the caching api itself to store data
2007-04-17T21:08:07 <neagulm> ThomasWaldmann, this would allow me to classify "on the fly" pages and cache the result
2007-04-17T21:10:17 <dreimark> yeah, we need to extended the moin command to classify all underlay pages too, that is a good base and it needs only one time classified
2007-04-17T21:13:35 <dreimark> skipm:can we start with one time classified pages e.g. all underlay pages which are static to train the system
2007-04-17T21:14:24 <skipm> you need a mixture of good and page pages to start - probably just a couple of each, but you need something on both sides of the fence.
2007-04-17T21:15:06 <skipm> ack "... good and bad pages ..."
2007-04-17T21:16:12 <neagulm> yes - for 2-way classification
2007-04-17T21:16:55 <skipm> note that spambayes doesn't really do n-way classification very well - CRM114 would be better for that task
2007-04-17T21:19:33 <neagulm> I think that with CRM114 we would have some problems: I'm not aware of some good python binding, just some simple wrappers around the executable. If we find or write some bindings for CRM114 I would chose him 100%
2007-04-17T21:20:08 <neagulm> ...chose it 100%
2007-04-17T21:20:30 <skipm> yeah, i don't keep up with CRM114
2007-04-17T21:20:55 <skipm> there is an nway.py script in the SpamBayes contrib stuff that I wrote, but it was just a toy
2007-04-17T21:20:56 <neagulm> another problem is unicode support. CRM114 has some problems with non ASCI/latin1 pages
2007-04-17T21:22:17 <neagulm> Elefant (https://elefant.developer.nicta.com.au/) would be a possible alternative but I'm not sure
2007-04-17T21:23:06 * ThomasWaldmann wasted too much time with argouml. i'll stay with text.
2007-04-17T21:24:49 <ThomasWaldmann> unicode or at least utf-8 is a must
2007-04-17T21:25:20 <skipm> what is "argouml"?
2007-04-17T21:25:41 <dreimark> skipm:a tool to write uml diagrams
2007-04-17T21:26:33 <dreimark> but the problem with those is if one likes to contribute it takes much more time as just editing a page
2007-04-17T21:30:56 <dreimark> neagulm:most of the code implementing spambayes could be used with other classification tools?
2007-04-17T21:31:21 <dreimark> skipm?
2007-04-17T21:31:53 <skipm> just a sec - work interrupts...
2007-04-17T21:34:53 <skipm> okay - i'm back - i have embedded the spambayes classifier into other python apps - most notably the Musi-Cal website (filter out spam from concert form submissions) - i've not tried it with other classification tools.
2007-04-17T21:35:18 <skipm> I suppose it depends how closely integrated you would like SB and the other classification tools to be.
2007-04-17T21:38:12 <dreimark> A difference is SB, will need actions on pages if its spam to revert them to a version which is ham
2007-04-17T21:38:34 <dreimark> it could be that it has to revert back more than one version
2007-04-17T21:39:04 <neagulm> ThomasWaldmann, From CRM114 FAQ: "you use a language that fits in 8-bit characters" or make CRM114 wchar based
2007-04-17T21:39:47 <dreimark> while classification only does not need reverting
2007-04-17T21:40:31 <neagulm> dreimark, If we make the system modular we could use almost any sane classification tool
2007-04-17T21:40:59 <dreimark> thats what I wanted to know
2007-04-17T21:42:26 <neagulm> dreimark, the detection of spam is just a subset of text classification. If we build the system correctly we could use the text classification system for spam detection. it only depends on the algorithms used.
2007-04-17T21:42:58 <dreimark> so while searching for the best classification tool we can talk about what all is needed to implement spambayes
2007-04-17T21:43:46 <neagulm> dreimark, yes
2007-04-17T21:43:52 <skipm> implement in what way?
2007-04-17T21:43:56 <dreimark> or any other, and its my opinion too that needs to be modularized
2007-04-17T21:44:57 <dreimark> skipm, should we start here http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wiki.moin.general/4488/match=spambayes
2007-04-17T21:45:42 <dreimark> skipm:a lot of tools you were missing got be added for 1.6
2007-04-17T21:46:04 <skipm> yeah, that's a good place to start. The spambayes part of the solution is actually very small (assuming all you want to do is distinguish ham and spam).
2007-04-17T21:48:52 <dreimark> one of the problems is that we need a user which has acls_before with admin rights
2007-04-17T21:49:40 <neagulm> skipm, dreimark, ThomasWaldmann: the main goal is classifying pages in fixed/variable set of sets/classes/clusters or just the case of spam detection?
2007-04-17T21:50:17 <skipm> my interest is in spam detection/rejection - i think that will be true for most MoinMoin admins
2007-04-17T21:50:44 <dreimark> my interests are in both
2007-04-17T21:51:35 <dreimark> and I wanted the classification seeing on pages with different mimetypes which could be extract to text too
2007-04-17T21:52:07 <dreimark> so we can use the xapian filter framework for that
2007-04-17T21:53:48 <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann:I do think I would use instead of superuser a spambayes user (unchangeable) with acl_rights_before
2007-04-17T21:55:33 <skipm> where does multiway classification turn up and present problems?
2007-04-17T21:56:11 <skipm> would classification be something simple like associating a page with a known Category?
2007-04-17T21:57:36 <dreimark> neagulm?
2007-04-17T21:58:40 <dreimark> it would help a lot if pages got categories where user missed to enter one
2007-04-17T21:59:04 <neagulm> This would be the simple method, providing the user the ability to "tag" (or in our point of view: classify) a specific page with one or multiple predefined tags
2007-04-17T21:59:58 <neagulm> dreimark, this can be one of many applications of text classification
2007-04-17T22:00:39 <skipm> neagulm,dreimark I have to go (work calls). feel free to email me (skip@pobox.com) with any questions or to set up another irc...
2007-04-17T22:02:07 <xorAxAx> heh, he has an accurate clock :)
2007-04-17T22:02:32 <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: what was the most annoying thing you noticed while using argouml?
2007-04-17T22:02:52 <ThomasWaldmann> neagulm: begin with spam stuff, but other classifications would be also nice (for category stuff)
2007-04-17T22:03:17 <neagulm> i could set up a mailing list at West University of Timisoara and use it for planning and discusions, would be this ok? moinmoin@lists.info.uvt.ro So we could have a way to discuss problems...
2007-04-17T22:03:52 <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: that it deleted stuff i didnt want to delete, no undo, screen redraw problems, seems java oriented (no python data types), ...
2007-04-17T22:03:58 <neagulm> i propose this because we are not all at the same UTC offset (Eg. skipm)
2007-04-17T22:04:29 <ThomasWaldmann> neagulm: no mailing list
2007-04-17T22:04:44 <neagulm> ThomasWaldmann, ok:)
2007-04-17T22:04:51 <neagulm> just irc :D
2007-04-17T22:04:51 <dreimark> neagulm:we like to use the wiki, best a project page of yours because we like to subscribe this :)
2007-04-17T22:05:01 <ThomasWaldmann> use irc, wiki, repo
2007-04-17T22:05:37 <neagulm> dreimark, perfect, I will create a special page for Ideas an planning
2007-04-17T22:05:52 <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann,xorAxAx, is the new moin-dev log tool on board
2007-04-17T22:06:36 <neagulm> brb, ~5 minutes
2007-04-17T22:06:43 <dreimark> skipm:cu
2007-04-17T22:08:30 <xorAxAx> dreimark: i havent checked it in but i can do so now
2007-04-17T22:09:58 <dreimark> xorAxAx:fine
2007-04-17T22:11:56 <dreimark> this makes it much easier to move from one system to an other
2007-04-17T22:12:16 <xorAxAx> yes
2007-04-17T22:16:46 <neagulm> back
2007-04-17T22:19:24 <dreimark> neagulm:if you look in MM.packages add_revision you see some code how to change a user
2007-04-17T22:19:32 <dreimark> that is only an example
2007-04-17T22:20:12 <dreimark> for how you can get a a user to have rights to revert a revision and afterwards to switch back to the current user
2007-04-17T22:24:26 <neagulm> ok
----- SERVER DOWNTIME, FOLLOWING LOGS WERE WRITTEN BY IRSSI
22:25:25 < dreimark> MoinMoin.action revert shows how revert does work
22:27:46 < neagulm> i was just "reading" it
22:28:12 < dreimark> :)
22:28:41 < dreimark> ThomasWaldmann:t.www.de not found ?
22:34:19 -!- moinBot [n=supybot@thinkmo.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
22:35:56 < dreimark> neagulm: e.g. MM.action __init__.py do_raw shows how to get the raw markup of a revision
22:36:12 < dreimark> of each revision you want
22:37:37 -!- Fabi_ (Daniela Nicklas) [n=dani@rrcs-67-53-209-151.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #moin-dev
22:37:49 < xorAxAx> dreimark: host is down, cf. the bot
22:37:58 < xorAxAx> so ThomasWaldmann might be down as well
22:38:18 < Fabi_> aloha
22:39:14 < xorAxAx> weather and wireless still fine, no hurricane yet? :)
22:39:42 < Fabi_> nope, everyting fine
22:39:48 < dreimark> and a nice breakfast ?
22:39:53 < Fabi_> except thtat we got sun burned yesterday
22:39:58 < xorAxAx> ouch
22:40:14 < Fabi_> after 3 weeks on the islands
22:40:21 < Fabi_> 2 days before leaving...
22:40:49 < xorAxAx> flowhase: your mentor is here, greet him and venerate him!
22:40:58 < xorAxAx> :-)
22:41:00 < Fabi_> swimming here is difficult. There are alwas some fish or turtles in the way ;)=
22:41:47 < Fabi_> any news about SOC? except that we finally got 4 slots
22:42:10 -!- ThomasWaldmann [n=twaldman@moinmoin/coreteam/thomas] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:43:03 < xorAxAx> Fabi_: students seem to be active getting into the codebase
22:43:24 < xorAxAx> Fabi_: judging the code will start in june, before their achievements should not be judged
22:43:49 < xorAxAx> on the other hand, it should be possible to drop students even denying the first 500 EUR in this timespan :)
22:44:51 < Fabi_> I hope we can get around that
22:45:45 < xorAxAx> yes, only a few similarities with the keppycase so far
22:46:09 -!- DrRitter (Daniela Nicklas) [n=dani@rrcs-67-53-62-94.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #moin-dev
22:46:39 < DrRitter> hmm, wifi is a bit shacky
22:46:43 < xorAxAx> 22:45:45 < xorAxAx> yes, only a few similarities with the keppycase so far
22:46:47 < xorAxAx> funny nickname :)
22:47:02 < xorAxAx> does she get level bonusses because of her academic grade?
22:48:10 < flowhase> greetings are ok (hi mentor) but i've got some hangups about person cults (no venerating, sorry ;D)
22:51:10 < grzywacz> :D
22:51:47 < xorAxAx> Fabi_: i think we are handling his question fine currently, right flowhase?
22:51:56 < xorAxAx> s/question/&s/
22:52:04 < xorAxAx> flowhase: or do you feel under-mentored?
22:56:57 < neagulm> xorAxAx, what is keppycase ?
22:57:12 < grzywacz> case of keppy
22:57:15 < grzywacz> ;-)
22:57:33 < xorAxAx> neagulm: keppy was a student of last year's soc
22:58:12 < xorAxAx> unfortunately he failed. of course we are interested in deriving behavourial patterns to recognize such problems as early as possible to correctly choose the counter measure
22:58:27 -!- _Fabi (Daniela Nicklas) [n=dani@rrcs-67-53-62-94.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #moin-dev
22:58:31 < _Fabi> re
22:58:55 < xorAxAx> wb
22:59:14 < grzywacz> wb again ;)
23:01:25 < dreimark> neagulm:in the past two soc someone could use a bad trick to get money without coding
23:02:03 < xorAxAx> dreimark: nowadays they still can if they play well and respect google's rule of not coding before june :)
23:03:13 < _Fabi> xorAxAx, is this the right audience to tell such tricks ;)=
23:03:28 < dreimark> ;)=
23:04:57 < xorAxAx> _Fabi: we will see :)
23:05:16 < _Fabi> xorAxAx, students get the best results if you expect the best from them
23:05:25 < dreimark> always
23:05:29 < xorAxAx> _Fabi: yes!
23:05:32 < xorAxAx> my words
23:05:37 < _Fabi> "the best" in both meanings
23:05:55 < grzywacz> It seems that Twisted Words supports non-sasl authentication only, but should be usable with python 2.3
23:06:06 < grzywacz> Looks like pyxmpp is the way to go for me...
23:06:15 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: you want to have sasl?
23:06:17 < dreimark> btw. will FranzPletz fix this search issue?
23:06:19 -!- DrRitter [n=dani@rrcs-67-53-62-94.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:06:27 < xorAxAx> dreimark: havent seen him here again
23:06:47 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, well, I suppose it might be useful if someone wanted to connect the bot with a server that requires it?
23:07:07 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: to authenticate which identity to which server?
23:07:52 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, itself to the server?
23:08:13 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, I wanted the bot to be a normal client, not a component.
23:08:19 < xorAxAx> i dont see why sasl is a strong requirement there
23:08:44 < xorAxAx> can you explain?
23:09:55 < |Kev|> because sasl is required for xmpp
23:09:56 < grzywacz> SASL is included in the core xmpp specification.
23:10:02 < grzywacz> As |Kev| said.
23:10:06 < |Kev|> you can't do xmpp without it
23:10:16 < grzywacz> Well, you can, but kind of retarded.
23:10:21 < |Kev|> no, you can't
23:10:35 < |Kev|> there's an old non-sasl method, but it's not xmpp :)
23:10:38 < xorAxAx> ah
23:10:43 < grzywacz> |Kev|, ok. :)
23:10:53 < grzywacz> So I got a non-sasl auth working with "jabber". ;)
23:11:01 < |Kev|> yeah
23:11:08 < |Kev|> it's not standards compliant though
23:11:24 < grzywacz> Not with IETF spec, I guess.
23:11:29 < xorAxAx> ok, didnt know it, so i guess people also like to infer that this is not the only lacking part of the lib?
23:11:53 < |Kev|> the only lib that I /know/ does XMPP1 is sleek, and that's not usable :/
23:12:10 < |Kev|> or usable but not acceptable, rather
23:12:22 < grzywacz> |Kev|, pyxmpp boasts having a nearly complete xmpp core implementation.
23:12:37 < |Kev|> ah ok, it does sasl?
23:12:42 < grzywacz> Yes.
23:12:45 < |Kev|> cool then :)
23:12:47 < grzywacz> :)
23:12:56 -!- rhoe (Oliver Siemoneit) [n=oliver_s@p5B158803.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #moin-dev
23:13:03 < |Kev|> If twisted doesn't, I'd strongly recommend not picking it
23:13:16 < |Kev|> some servers don't support the old non-standards way
23:13:25 < |Kev|> for whatever my opinion's worth :)
23:13:26 < grzywacz> I've been browsing the sources I found only a non-sasl auth.
23:13:37 < |Kev|> I don't know one way or the other
23:14:21 < xorAxAx> well, it also directly implies something about its maintenance state
23:14:30 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: are you looking at the VCS or the last release?
23:14:41 < xorAxAx> i figured that their non-core packages are pretty ancient sometimes
23:14:42 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, release. I know what you mean.
23:14:50 -!- Fabi_ [n=dani@rrcs-67-53-209-151.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out]
23:15:11 < xorAxAx> so have a short look at the VCS and then ask for a release schedule if necessary
23:15:37 < |Kev|> even Psi's stable build doesn't do xmpp1
23:15:51 < |Kev|> on the other hand, the development branch has for over a year
23:16:32 < grzywacz> Argh, I see no repo available...
23:16:36 < grzywacz> It's not in the main one.
23:17:39 < _Fabi> aloha ThomasWaldmann
23:17:47 < ThomasWaldmann> moin _Fabi
23:19:03 < grzywacz> Ok, found a more recent release...
23:19:07 < grzywacz> Strange mess.
23:19:51 < _Fabi> as everything seams to go fine without me I consider just staying here ;p=
23:20:08 < ThomasWaldmann> hehe
23:20:21 < grzywacz> TimeoutError (#2218)
23:20:21 < grzywacz> - (Jabber) SASL authentication, resource binding and session
23:20:21 < grzywacz> establishment were added.
23:20:23 < grzywacz> -_-;
23:20:33 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: why "-_-"?
23:20:43 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, it's getting complicated again :)
23:20:48 < ThomasWaldmann> looks like we lost connectivity to the wiki server
23:21:12 < _Fabi> they have half a douzend sea turtles that live here right at the hotel beach
23:21:19 < xorAxAx> dreimark: i have committed it, remind me to push it when the server is up :)
23:21:25 < ThomasWaldmann> now you all see the advantages of a DVCS
23:21:30 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, I still can't find where their repository lives ;)
23:21:56 < xorAxAx> _Fabi: they are not impaired by the tourists from europe? :)
23:22:17 < _Fabi> no they just own the beach
23:22:55 < _Fabi> everybody tells you that they are an endanger specie but I don't belive thta
23:24:31 < xorAxAx> then enjoy the last few of them to be able to tell your childs how they looked like if they have ceased in the meantime :)
23:25:09 < grzywacz> Ah, there it is...
23:25:29 < grzywacz> Last change: ralphm: Unbreak XMPP SASL on Python 2.3.
23:25:35 < grzywacz> Looks good. Maybe.
23:25:47 < _Fabi> on Kawai the have monk seals that are also endangered
23:26:23 < _Fabi> but the easiest way to see them is visiting one of the most crowded beaches on the island
23:26:35 < _Fabi> where they just lay between the tourists
23:27:10 < _Fabi> as if there were no empty beaches on hawaii
23:28:20 < dreimark> neagulm,ThomasWaldmann: its good to have googles cache too
23:28:29 < dreimark> neagulm http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:ZgD0G8YCKHMJ:moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ActionMarket/ApprovePageAction+moinmoin+approve&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de
23:29:19 < flowhase> xorAxAx: handling fine?
23:29:51 < dreimark> will need changes (I guess) for 1.6 too but it shows a way how to handle approve.
23:30:48 < xorAxAx> flowhase: hmm?
23:30:51 < _Fabi> moin flowhase
23:31:02 < grzywacz> But then, no data forms support, which pyxmpp does have.
23:31:23 < flowhase> hi _Fabi :>
23:31:24 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: moin supports tables which can be filled with - and (./) :-)
23:31:36 < flowhase> still doing fine over there in hawaii i see
23:31:44 < dreimark> good night
23:31:48 < _Fabi> yes
23:31:51 < grzywacz> night dreimark
23:31:56 < neagulm> good night dreimark
23:31:59 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, wait, why are you telling me this? :)
23:32:10 < flowhase> xorAxAx: just skipped backlog and was wondering which question you refer to
23:32:13 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: you may want to build a matrix :)
23:32:22 < grzywacz> Ah. :D
23:32:34 < _Fabi> I'll be flying back tomorrow ariving Friday morning
23:32:59 -!- dreimark [n=Reimar@moinmoin/fan/reimar] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
23:33:04 < xorAxAx> flowhase: there was just a general question about your current impression about mentorship and if you feel fine about it (i hope so) :)
23:33:47 < flowhase> i do :>
23:34:10 < flowhase> actually i was more wondering if you are content with me
23:34:56 < xorAxAx> i havent tracked your progress
23:35:05 < grzywacz> There's no release date set for twisted words 0.6.
23:35:10 < grzywacz> 0.5 happened in January.
23:35:14 < grzywacz> 0.4 in May 2006...
23:35:44 < grzywacz> I have an impression that it's not mature enough.
23:35:45 < xorAxAx> maybe #twisted knows
23:36:03 < grzywacz> I asked them about jabber support last week, they told me to find the lead developer.
23:36:03 < grzywacz> -_-;
23:36:08 < xorAxAx> possible, if they introduce such apparently core features such late
23:36:24 < xorAxAx> i.e. they didnt know howto find him?
23:36:27 < flowhase> xorAxAx: well i finally started filling my SoC-pages in the moinmoin-wiki about 19 hours ago
23:36:42 < grzywacz> His email is widely available. ;)
23:36:58 < xorAxAx> flowhase: i currently cant check this claim :-)
23:37:17 < grzywacz> heh ;]
23:37:19 < flowhase> hmm ... restrictive internet?
23:38:06 < xorAxAx> flowhase: the server is down or disconnected from the internet :)
23:38:24 < flowhase> oh damnit ...
23:38:38 < flowhase> what happened?
23:39:00 < xorAxAx> no idea
23:39:06 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, the last change in their repo, apart from SASL fix, is 4 months old. Doesn't look like an intensively developed project.
23:39:12 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: :-)
23:39:28 < _Fabi> .oO(loss of comminication can only mean one thing .... invasion)
23:39:35 < ThomasWaldmann> flowhase: somebody set us up the bomb :)
23:39:41 < _Fabi> heheheheh
23:39:59 < flowhase> oh boy ... there goes another one for schaeuble
23:40:01 < grzywacz> :D
23:40:03 < xorAxAx> the BND shut down the switch because thomas is wearing a beard
23:40:47 < xorAxAx> (and must be a terrorist because of that :))
23:40:54 < ThomasWaldmann> i can't reach 3 different servers there, so it is likely the main switch or main connection
23:41:00 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, whereas for pyxmpp, the last change is 2 months old! :D
23:41:27 < xorAxAx> hmm :)
23:41:54 < xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: hmm, yeah
23:42:16 * _Fabi wonders if xorAxAx's project is working on the right protocol ;p=
23:42:34 < ThomasWaldmann> but that makes me rather confident that it is either BECAUSE they are working there or urgent enough they already started working on solving it
23:42:55 < xorAxAx> _Fabi: why is that?
23:43:30 < _Fabi> xpp seams to have lots of problems
23:43:38 < neagulm> ThomasWaldmann, it would be nice to have some external mirror in sync with the main one
23:43:41 < xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: for hetzner (where my server is), usually the problems only affect the customer hosted systems (they have 3 data centers), but not hetzner.de :)
23:44:06 < xorAxAx> _Fabi: well, second system syndrom can be encountered anywhere :)
23:44:31 < xorAxAx> and design by committee must be good as we learned in the design^Wanti pattern slide show
23:45:42 < xorAxAx> if it wasnt so enterprisey, it might actually have defeated irc already :)
23:47:51 < _Fabi> "Idiocy by commity - the nicest kind"
23:48:20 < grzywacz> :\
23:48:24 < grzywacz> I like xmpp.
23:48:58 < _Fabi> just don't listen to us
23:49:09 < _Fabi> I have no idea about xmpp
23:49:53 < _Fabi> ok, so I am off for another day in paradise
23:49:55 < _Fabi> cu
23:49:58 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: i havent analysed their workflows very much but it seems that i like it much more than e.g. java wrt community interaction
23:50:01 < xorAxAx> c u _Fabi
23:50:33 -!- _Fabi [n=dani@rrcs-67-53-62-94.west.biz.rr.com] has quit ["Verlassend"]
23:50:37 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, I consider java community process as rather obscure...
23:50:43 < xorAxAx> yes :)
23:51:00 < xorAxAx> but only because you dont have enough money and your company is not big enough :)
23:51:34 < grzywacz> s/community/money/g?
23:51:35 < grzywacz> ;)
23:51:41 < ThomasWaldmann> funny routing currently X)
23:52:09 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: hehe
23:53:47 < flowhase> hmm
23:54:08 < flowhase> i am a bit curious about this "keppycase"
23:54:28 < flowhase> what was the problem there?
23:55:34 < xorAxAx> flowhase: a) he refused/deferred reverse engineering existing strucutures
23:56:21 < xorAxAx> b) he refused to set his username in the .hgrc for 70% of the time (well, not a big thing actually but rather annoying compared to the difficulty of that task)
23:56:49 < xorAxAx> c) he seemed to be working parallely but avoided to talk about it
23:57:19 < flowhase> working parallely?
23:57:36 < xorAxAx> d) he didnt think that running moin locally for debugging is a good idea (he committed in 5 min. intervals "raise Exception('debug %i %r' ...)" stuff
23:57:47 < xorAxAx> flowhase: well, having another paid job
23:57:51 < xorAxAx> like you :)
23:57:56 < flowhase> oh ... i see
23:58:29 < flowhase> hope i don't make you nervous
23:58:41 < xorAxAx> e) he actually seemed pretty energyless when it came to communication in this channel at the mid/end of the program
23:58:58 < xorAxAx> something like "least of it to ensure as most payments as possible"
23:59:20 < ThomasWaldmann> f) he didnt really have python coding experience
23:59:20 < flowhase> i c
23:59:34 < xorAxAx> f) he was brazen enough to complain at google after the mentor decided to drop his last payment
23:59:45 < flowhase> oh boy
23:59:51 < xorAxAx> (i.e. $ 2500 instead of $ 4500)
--- Day changed Wed Apr 18 2007
00:00:18 < flowhase> regarding my job:
00:00:35 < xorAxAx> i think that 20/18 is a fair split as you outlined earlier
00:00:52 < xorAxAx> and we trust in your strengths :)
00:01:03 < flowhase> i have a deadline on april 27th, after that i wanted to slow down on work projects anyway
00:01:11 < grzywacz> My kernel is fubar.
00:01:13 < xorAxAx> ah, well
00:01:19 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: which distro?
00:01:24 < grzywacz> The very moment it starts swapping everything dies. Like... an interrupt storm.
00:01:26 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, gentoo ;)
00:01:34 < xorAxAx> ah, i remember
00:01:45 * xorAxAx mentally updates distro sociogram
00:01:49 < grzywacz> ;-)
00:01:51 < flowhase> also my contract is very flexible ... it states that i should aim for about 10 to 20h per month
00:02:08 < flowhase> so there should be no problem there
00:02:30 < xorAxAx> cool
00:02:42 < xorAxAx> 20h per month? didnt you say 20h per week?
00:03:23 < flowhase> i gave an estimation of 20h per week for this project here :>
00:03:35 < flowhase> i currently work 50h per month
00:03:59 < flowhase> it's really just a student part time job helping out in the backend development
00:04:35 < xorAxAx> ok :)
00:04:52 < flowhase> most of the stuff i do is simple supportive webapps for the editorial ladies
00:05:25 < flowhase> i think they will love me after finishing the current project ;>
00:05:45 < grzywacz> Or drop you, because "you are too good and for sure have too high requirements". ;-p
00:06:10 * grzywacz curses his cold and runs to clean his nose again
00:06:48 < flowhase> grzywacz: na, noone doing fine in karlsruhe it companies for student wage gets dropped
00:07:27 < grzywacz> :)
00:07:29 < flowhase> xorAxAx: you are doing distro sociograms?
00:07:46 < xorAxAx> flowhase: recently i learned about a company which pays 8 EUR/hour to students that are working there for 2 years
00:07:59 < xorAxAx> it is a high tech company
00:08:08 < xorAxAx> flowhase: only virtually in my mind :)
00:08:47 < flowhase> xorAxAx: that's also very common in karlsruhe
00:08:47 < flowhase> 1&1 for example
00:09:04 < grzywacz> 8euro/hour? That's a lot for students here. :P
00:09:12 < xorAxAx> flowhase: ugh, at the university, you earn more here
00:09:24 < xorAxAx> in NRW
00:09:45 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: and even more for those behind the eastern EU wall :)
00:09:58 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, so very true.
00:09:59 < flowhase> grzywacz: well, government regulations for payments by the state (if your working for university faculties) is 7.50eu/h for students without a diploma
00:10:12 < flowhase> xorAxAx: oh?
00:10:21 < grzywacz> I get paid... 3 euro / hour when I do part-time jobs for uni.
00:10:22 < grzywacz> ;-S
00:11:15 < xorAxAx> flowhase: well, a bit more than 7,50 i think, less tan 9 EUR
00:11:35 < flowhase> grzywacz: wamn
00:11:50 < flowhase> wanna come to germany for a year of exchange studies? :>
00:11:56 < grzywacz> flowhase, not really. ;-)
00:12:11 < flowhase> k :>
00:12:36 < xorAxAx> what do you dislike about it? :)
00:12:58 < grzywacz> But then, in Norway, you can get 15 euro/h painting houses. :P
00:13:01 < grzywacz> :D
00:13:47 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, me? I'm going to finish my studies soon, no time for that. And I have a gf here I'd rather not leave for a year. :)
00:13:56 < xorAxAx> in norway they had been forbidding "life of brian" for nearly a year
00:14:05 < xorAxAx> (in italy for about 20 years, though)
00:14:08 < grzywacz> Why so?
00:14:14 < xorAxAx> blasphemy
00:14:17 < grzywacz> O_o;;;;;;;;
00:14:22 < grzywacz> Never heard of it.
00:14:29 < xorAxAx> the fact or the movie?
00:14:33 < grzywacz> The fact.
00:14:39 < xorAxAx> can you read german btw? :)
00:14:45 < grzywacz> Even this country is ok with this movie, so...
00:14:48 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, only a little bit.
00:15:19 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: searchfor norway or italy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python's_Life_of_Brian
00:16:14 < grzywacz> That's unexpected.
00:18:39 < neagulm> in romania a student gets paid for working at a University with ~2EURO/hour. If working at some company it gets between 3.5-4EURO/hour
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00:20:25 < xorAxAx> hmm, and that is still left from the EU border fence
00:20:32 < xorAxAx> s/left/eastern/
00:21:11 < xorAxAx> neagulm: do you actually have fences?
00:21:47 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, Romania is in the eu
00:22:54 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: yes! but exactly because of that, some countries are building/had to build a fence on their eastern borders
00:23:11 < xorAxAx> (and i meant western when i issued the above sed command)
00:23:14 < grzywacz> I don't think we have any fences here.
00:23:22 < xorAxAx> "here"?
00:23:31 < grzywacz> On Poland's eastern border. :P
00:23:48 < xorAxAx> hmm, let me check
00:24:05 < xorAxAx> well, i saw the pictures, there are not that many countries that could have been shown
00:24:51 < xorAxAx> http://d-a-s-h.org/dossier/12/11_fortress.html
00:25:28 < xorAxAx> "Worst of all, plans (which have been kept highly secret) to build a border fence are apparently in the works. We cannot find out much information about this: we have not seen any documents related to this fence but we have seen PHARE documents which speak of the building of »platforms« and »installations« and we understand this to be related to the fence. "
00:25:32 < xorAxAx> (it is old, though)
00:26:05 < xorAxAx> also cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_Europe
00:26:08 < neagulm> xorAxAx, no just mine fields ;)
00:26:44 < xorAxAx> neagulm: hehe
00:27:08 < neagulm> i don't think there are fences but the security if tight
00:27:40 < grzywacz> Yup.
00:27:52 < grzywacz> As if fences could actually help. ;)
00:28:10 < neagulm> mostly on the Serbia-Montenegro and Ukraine border.
00:28:50 < xorAxAx> neagulm: ah
00:30:30 < grzywacz> Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary and other countries that joined the EU in 2004 were required to enforce border protection in order to join the EU.
00:30:37 < grzywacz> lol @ wikipedia
00:30:54 < grzywacz> Czech Republic is sorrounded by EU countries. :P
00:30:59 < xorAxAx> :)
00:31:15 < grzywacz> I think he/she meant Slovakia.
00:31:28 < grzywacz> Certificate of failure anyway...
00:31:58 < xorAxAx> reminds me at the CNN screen shot where there is poland instead of the czech republic and russia instead of poland
00:32:34 < neagulm> i'm a little bit tired and I think that i will go to sleep :)
00:32:44 < xorAxAx> have a good night
00:32:47 < neagulm> i will be back tomorrow
00:32:56 < neagulm> better said today :)
00:33:07 < grzywacz> night neagulm :)
00:33:12 < neagulm> good night
00:33:15 -!- neagulm [n=marian@dhcp-info.info.uvt.ro] has quit ["Bye"]
00:33:40 < grzywacz> xorAxAx, http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/archives/2003/02/cnnsucks.jpg
00:33:42 < grzywacz> Dodge this. :P
00:34:05 < ThomasWaldmann> http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/04/17/1240237.shtml utc rules
00:34:34 < xorAxAx> grzywacz: LOL
00:34:37 < grzywacz> :P
00:34:53 < xorAxAx> well, its partly correct for weird values of the term "nearly"
00:35:07 < grzywacz> Sound, light... what's the difference? :P
00:36:07 < xorAxAx> maybe the subtitle guy has synesthesia
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00:47:26 < grzywacz> stupid system
02:00:28 < grzywacz> night
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09:14:22 < ThomasWaldmann> moin
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10:47:56 < dreimark> moin
10:54:42 < dreimark> xorAxAx:thinkmo is avaiable, so you can push that nice tool
10:59:01 < grzywacz> hi everyone
11:56:24 < ThomasWaldmann> moin grzywacz
11:56:44 < flowhase> moin
12:03:18 < ThomasWaldmann> hi flowhase
12:03:49 * ThomasWaldmann tries to dump some storage thoughts into python-like pseudocode
12:11:09 < CIA-28> moin: Alexander Schremmer <alex AT alexanderweb DOT de> * 2001:8f130438d8e8 /MoinMoin/script/import/irclog.py: Incremental IRCLog importer, does not send mail notifications anymore.
12:11:14 < xorAxAx> dreimark: done
12:18:19 * xorAxAx wonders why thinkmo is /down/
12:18:29 < xorAxAx> s/is/was/
12:18:34 < xorAxAx> they had a power outage? MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2007-04-17 (last edited 2007-10-29 19:09:10 by localhost)
