Description

Everything seems to work fine - and it also does - but from an accessibility's point of view (AccessibleMoin) this could be considered as a bug: Bulletless lists do have the same html markup as visual indentation. Or to quote the IBM Human Ability and Accessibility Centre (http://www-03.ibm.com/able/guidelines/web/webmarkup.html):

Use list elements (OL, UL, and DL) to properly convey lists of information. Do not use list elements for visual indentation because assistive technology will interpret and deliver information differently from what was intended. 

Often badly accessilbe sites do use <blockqoute> or <dl> markup to indent a paragraph. IBM Home Page Reader will read the paragraph then as a quote or a definition list. Moin uses <ul> to indent text into serveral levels. However - if you look at most common ways of usage in this wiki e.g. in discussions - creating a list is not really intended: only a paragraph should be indented more or less to structure a text visually like

Blablabla... -- UserA

• I hate your blablabla -- UserB

I like it -- UserA

• I say it again: I hate it -- UserB

In this case: we have two lists with only one list emement at at thime. Would you call a list a list if you have only one item?? This means: Real indentation must be done by providing a css class with a certain padding/margin only - not by lists IMHO.

Steps to reproduce

1. Go to HelpOnLists

2. Check the html markup of the examples "indentation" and "bulletless list"
3. Both concept aim a different purposes but have the same markup

Example

Component selection

• general

Details

Workaround

Discussion

There are two ways to deal with that:

• Drop the concept of indentation. Call "indentation" in SyntaxReference and HelpOnLists "creation of a bulletless list". This would be semantically correct. Open question: why do we need two ways (either spaces or dots) to create one and the same ouput, a bulletless list?

• Still call indentation indentation but do indentation by css and not by a list. Open questions: Real indentation is only visually accessible. The indentation and meaning of it is not perceivalbe for screenreader users. So next question: is indentation a good concept at all?

This "bug"-report is also a plead to use more logical markup like <code> <abbr> <ins> <del> <address> <blockqoute> <q>... and move away from a visual orientation only (like already done with <strong> and <em> instead of using <b> and <i>)

Indentation represents a discussion, which have a tree like structure. For example:

<div>
    Text...
    <div>
        Reply to text...
        <div>
            Replay 1 to reply...
        </div>
        <div>
            Reply 2 to replay
        </div> 
    </div>
</div>

Using CSS you can indent each div relative to its parent div. I don't know what a screen reader can grok from such structure. Using unordered lists is not much different from those divs and seems acceptable solution.

I suggest you go and find what is the best way to present tree like structures to screen readers, and how others are doing this.

Plan

• Priority:
• Assigned to:
• Status:

Comment & Possible Solution

This has been discussed, and I have working code which fixes this by making the indented paragraphs PARAGRAPHS!

The solution is located at this bug: MoinMoinBugs/ParagraphBreaksBrokenWhenIndented.

The solution presented in MoinMoinBugs/ParagraphBreaksBrokenWhenIndented also solves broken table formatting when the table is indented. --VincentCordrey 2008-04-18 09:15:09

CategoryMoinMoinBug CategoryForMoin2